Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: Symbolism in the Quran
peace be upon you Ahmed
After our discussion had gone off topic, I didn't know where to put this new thread. If you think this is the wrong section, please move it. And if you've already created a new thread for this discussion, then please let me know!
Anyway,
You asked for examples of the quran saying that God explains His message in parables.
13:17 [Whenever] He sends down water from the sky, and [once-dry] river-beds are running high [37] according to their measure, the stream carries scum on its surface; [38] and, likewise, from that [metal] which they smelt in the fire in order to make ornaments or utensils, [there rises] scum. In this way does God set forth the parable of truth and falsehood: for, as far as the scum is concerned, it passes away as [does all] dross; but that which is of benefit to man abides on earth. In this way does God set forth the parables
14:25 yielding its fruit at all times by its Sustainer's leave. And [thus it is that] God propounds parables unto men,' so that they might bethink themselves [of the truth].
29:43 And so We propound these parables unto man: but none can grasp their innermost meaning save those who [of Us] are aware
47:3 This, because they who are bent on denying the truth pursue falsehood, whereas they who have attained to faith pursue [but] the truth [that flows] from their Sustainer. In this way does God set forth unto man the parables of their true state.
And there are more examples. If these verses don't mean what I think they mean, then please point that out.
You said:
So it was me who opened the subject questioning the reality of these stories, right?
No.
I am the one who started this.
But I am saying that whether they were real or not DOES NOT matter. It doesn't.
I gave you that Vietnam example to show that even real stories can be taken as symbolic.
Vietnam did happen. But I can make up a story about that too. I can talk about a fake war that is very similar to Vietnam and Iraq.
Although the means used were different, the result and the message are the same.
We know that Vietnam happened because we have video recordings and live people that have witnessed the war. But if the Vietnam war happened so long ago that we had no evidence, then there was NO way we would know if it actually happened or not.
And although the quran doesn't mention a specific time or place for these stories, you and others claim that these things happened long ago.
Now common sense tells ME that these stories probably didn't happen. But I will not rule out the possibility that they did. They might've. But the fact is that I will never know. Niether will you. We can only believe in these stories. You can say all you want that God is not like our grannies, but that doesn't change the fact that we cannot prove whether these stories happened.
So, my point is, let's not focus on what we can never prove no matter how much we argue, let's focus on their message.
BTW, Al Khidr took my quote out of context. I never said the Quran was lying.
As for the rest of his post.
Al Khidr said:
Phoenix1 would you actually say this did not happen? Remember Allah said that His revelation (Al Qur????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢aan) is the truth. Remember you said, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????the Quran is lying because you can't prove that Adam's story actually happened????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? For one look how you use the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????lying????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? in reference to the Qur????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢aan which came from Allah who you call ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????God????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????. Phoenix1 (the true kafir), you are missing a critical point here. If the Holy Qur????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢aan is the Infallible word as Allah have stated below:
The thing is, if these stories didn't actually happen doesnt mean the Quran is lying. Because the Quran never claims that these stories actually happened.
I can prove that they never happened because no human has ever seen any example of this. Ever. It's a fact that the laws of the universe are always constant. That's why we can think and live our lives. We know how things are supposed to happen and will happen.
But in the end, it's all about whether we trust logic and reasoning or not. I do. And you don't. And thus, we can never agree on this.
So let's not argue about these things.
Let's focus on the important part: the message of these stories.
Posted:
Sun 12 Nov, 2006 1:15 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Thanks Walid
it is fine in this forum bro
I will have a look at it later and respond if I have anything to say inshallah
Cheers
Posted:
Sun 12 Nov, 2006 1:35 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Hello Walid
Just a couple of questions mate
I have noticed that you stated in another place that there are many signs of God around us, would that mean you believe in that God? and if yes can you please give me a few examples of these signs, as well would you consider the Quran a sign from God or not?
and finally, do the following two sentences mean the same to you?
1) I'm going to tell you a true story
2) I'm going to tell you a story
Thanks
Posted:
Sun 12 Nov, 2006 10:03 pm
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
There are signs, the patterns that are present everywhere. Everything is subject to constant, unchanging laws, which is why we have mathematics. This constant universal law (al kitab) gives proof of a universal intelligence at work. There are no laws without intelligence.
But again, I'm not 100% sure about anything.
Do I see Quran as I sign, I don't know.
I try to take the quran as any other book. And right now I'm just trying to learn some lessons from it instead of worrying about whether it is some special book or not. The answer to that will come in time.
about the two statements. My answer is: it depends.
Truth doesn't mean that it actually happened. The truth of that statement can be in anything.
"I am going to tell you a true story."
Well, by that, It seems that you are saying that the story actually happened. So, to make sure that you are telling the truth, I will verify you
claim.
"I am going to tell you a story."
In this sentence, you are not claiming that this story actually happened, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain truth.
It might teach me a lesson, or reveal something to me.
My point is, there are true stories that are meaningless, and there are just stories that tell us something true.
It is the lesson, the deeper meaning, that we are more concerned about.
The Quran never claims that these stories actually happened. It never gives us a setting for these stories.
So the Quran gives me no reason to believe that these stories actually happened.
But why are we arguing about something the quran never talks about?
You say that these stories must have happened because God is not like our grannies who makes up stories.
THen I say, "bring me the evidence."
Then you say that we don't need evidence, we should just believe what the quran tells us.
I say that the quran never says these stories actually happened. And if it did, it would need to give us proof.
Proof is the only thing that seperates truth from falsehood.
Then you say....what? your turn, Ahmed.
Posted:
Mon 13 Nov, 2006 4:16 am
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
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Post subject:
I have moved it over to 101 debate thanks
Posted:
Mon 13 Nov, 2006 6:39 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Thanks SOA
You are right, it should be here
Take care
Posted:
Mon 13 Nov, 2006 6:53 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
There are signs, the patterns that are present everywhere. Everything is subject to constant, unchanging laws, which is why we have mathematics.
Good morning mate
Great, I agree with you that there are many signs of Allah existence, however I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t agree with your ending which is that is why we have mathematics, it just does not click with me really, however there are also signs of God that are not physical and it can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be mathematics, for example bro:
We have a person who fell from the tenth floor, mathematics say, that person must die, however in reality though we have many possibilities:
1) the person will die instantly
2) the person will have minor injuries
3) the person will have no scratch
So please explain to me where the hell is mathematics in here?
Well here is another example for ya:
A person who was diagnosed with cancer and the doctors using mathematics suggested that death is within a few months however that person can live for years and years and finally die in a car accident
On the other hand we see many who has nothing wrong with them and they just die even in their sleep
Where is mathematics here again bro?
phoenix1 wrote:
This constant universal law (al kitab) gives proof of a universal intelligence at work. There are no laws without intelligence.
mate, please if you will debate matters with me, I ask you humbly not to provide evidences from Kyle????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s book of the matrix, cheers, hmmm ok, I may accept evidences from Ayman books of archaeology but please not from Kyle????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s matrix
phoenix1 wrote:
But again, I'm not 100% sure about anything.
hmmm, what that tells me exactly bro?
ok it means you are not sure, sorry
phoenix1 wrote:
Do I see Quran as I sign, I don't know.
hmmm, what that tells me exactly bro?
ok it means you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t know much about the Quran
phoenix1 wrote:
I try to take the quran as any other book.
good but please before you do that you have to show me first other books like it then I may accept your statement that you take it as other books
see your statement is flawed because there is no other book like it, so how the hell you take it like other books?
phoenix1 wrote:
And right now I'm just trying to learn some lessons from it instead of worrying about whether it is some special book or not. The answer to that will come in time.
but I might ask you why you want to learn lessons from the Quran?, there are zillions of other books that you can learn lessons from, why the Quran bro?
phoenix1 wrote:
about the two statements. My answer is: it depends.
Sure, but let me tell you first, you have been done with this question regarding the two statements I have set you up indeed:
phoenix1 wrote:
Truth doesn't mean that it actually happened. The truth of that statement can be in anything.
that was not my question Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
I am going to tell you a true story."
Well, by that, It seems that you are saying that the story actually happened. So, to make sure that you are telling the truth, I will verify you claim.
So you agree that if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man who said :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? I am going to tell you a true story.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means that the story must have happened ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Because there is no need for me to include the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????TRUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, while it is not true, remember we are assuming that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if you doubt that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful, then all you need is to verify my claim, which I say fair enough
phoenix1 wrote:
"I am going to tell you a story."
In this sentence, you are not claiming that this story actually happened, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain truth. It might teach me a lesson, or reveal something to me.
And you agree in here that if I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t include the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????TRUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means there is no evidences that it happened, which I also agree with you
phoenix1 wrote:
My point is, there are true stories that are meaningless, and there are just stories that tell us something true. It is the lesson, the deeper meaning, that we are more concerned about.
well, in every story (true or not) there is a lesson, at least for a meaningless story the lesson is ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????it is meaningless????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, we follow the lessons or not, that is a totally different story
phoenix1 wrote:
The Quran never claims that these stories actually happened. It never gives us a setting for these stories.
Here where you have been done mate, The Quran indeed told us that all these stories are real, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s look at the verse you missed:
This is the true account:, And there is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise. [The Quran ; 3:62]
إِنَّ هَذَا لَهُوَ الْقَصَصُ الْحَقُّ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَإِنَّ اللّهَ لَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ (62)
-> See Walid what you missed: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? إِنَّ هَذَا لَهُوَ الْقَصَصُ الْحَقُّ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? This is the true account????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now I want you to take this Arabic word to anyone you trust and ask him what does it mean? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? الْقَصَصُ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al Qasas????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, translated by Yusuf Ali as ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Account????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, which is wrong again by this ignorant translator, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al Qasas????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means only one thing ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????STORIES????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and in here Allah is telling us that the Stories in the Quran ARE TRUE, see: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? الْقَصَصُ الْحَقُّ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Al Qasas Al Haqq????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????The True Stories????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.bloody e. the STORIES IN THE QURAN ARE TRUE ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al Haqq????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
See bro, you have been done, and I expect that someone smart like you to concede and don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t show arrogance, take your time though, there is no rush, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m still planning to provide more evidences as I find them to prove your claim totally wrong
Now it does not make sense that Allah included the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????TRUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? about these ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Qasas????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Stories????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and it can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be true, you have indeed accepted that stories can be true told by a human like me who told you ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m going to tell you a TRUE story????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? while on the other hand you can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t do this with Allah, if you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t then you know who you are, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not going to say it so I won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t offend as you aloners are very touchy indeed
phoenix1 wrote:
So the Quran gives me no reason to believe that these stories actually happened.
But why are we arguing about something the quran never talks about?
The Quran gives you every reason to recognise these stories as true stories in addition to the lessons learnt from it:
1) The stories are told by Allah and not a human
2) Allah told in His Quran that the stories are TTRUE 3:62
See, the Quran talked about if these stories are true or not, 3:62 told us that those stories are TRUE, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? إِنَّ هَذَا لَهُوَ الْقَصَصُ الْحَقُّ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? This is the true account????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
phoenix1 wrote:
You say that these stories must have happened because God is not like our grannies who makes up stories.
THen I say, "bring me the evidence."
Ahmed says????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
The evidence is 3:62
Then Ahmed adds:
You have been done Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
Then you say that we don't need evidence,
Sorry, I should have said it that I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t need evidence
However for you, the evidence is 3:62
Then Ahmed adds again:
You have been done brother Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
we should just believe what the quran tells us.
I say that the quran never says these stories actually happened.
For me yes because Allah has given me the knowledge to recognise that the Quran is His and can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be the work of anyone else, therefore I believe anything it says
For you, the Quran did say that these stories actually happened., 3:62
Ahmed adds for the third time:
You have been done dear Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
And if it did, it would need to give us proof.
The proof is 3:62
Ahmed adds for the fourth time:
You have been done mate
phoenix1 wrote:
Proof is the only thing that seperates truth from falsehood.
Exactly brother, that is what Allah told us about the Quran, here it is:
81: And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
82: We send down in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. [The Quran ; 17:81-82]
وَقُلْ جَاء الْحَقُّ وَزَهَقَ الْبَاطِلُ إِنَّ الْبَاطِلَ كَانَ زَهُوقًا (81)
وَنُنَزِّلُ مِنَ الْقُرْآنِ مَا هُوَ شِفَاء وَرَحْمَةٌ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلاَ يَزِيدُ الظَّالِمِينَ إَلاَّ خَسَارًا (82)
-> See, the Ttruth Arrived in form of the Quran:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, this can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be said about the Quran unless every single story in the Quran is real unless Allah told us in advance that it is a metaphor, indeed the Quran is full of lessons to humanity, these lessons are the results of many things, true stories, metaphor stories and just plain statements, those who take it as the Haqq will surely recognise that this the only way to be blessed and healed:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? We send down in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
phoenix1 wrote:
Then you say....what? your turn, Ahmed.
I say you have been done mate, however earlier we discussed the inclusion of the word True before the word story when I told you ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????I will tell you a TRUE story????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and you said that yes it means that it is true but you may have to verify it, I stated that if you consider me truthful, there will be no need to verify it, now let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s assume that you have doubt in my honesty and you want to verify it and see if the story I told is true or not because I included the word true, this now should apply to Allah from your side, you are doubting that the stories are true despite that He said they are ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????True Stories????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, consequently you need to verify it, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s look at the work of H Y who verified a story in the Quran that Allah never told us it is a metaphors:
PROPHET MUSA (AS) AND SEA'S SPLITTING IN TWO
The kings of Egypt-known as "Pharaohs" (or "Fir'awn" in the Arabic of the Qur'an)-regarded themselves as divine in the polytheistic, superstitious religion of ancient Egypt. At a time when the people of Egypt favoured a superstitious belief system over a divine belief system-the same era in which when the Children of Israel were enslaved-Allah sent the Prophet Musa (as) as a messenger to the tribe of Egypt.
However, Pharaoh and his court, and the people of Egypt in general, almost universally refused to abandon their idolatrous beliefs when the Prophet Musa (as) called them to divine religion and the Oneness of Allah.
The Prophet Musa (as) revealed to Pharaoh and his courtiers that they should avoid false worship, warning them of Allah's wrath. In response to this, they rose up and slandered the Prophet Musa (as): They accused him of being mad, of being a sorcerer and of falsehood. Pharaoh and his people refused to submit to the Prophet Musa (as) even though many troubles were visited upon them. They refused to accept Allah as the only God. They even held the Prophet Musa (as) responsible for what had befallen them and sought to exile him from Egypt. In the Qur'an, Allah makes this reference to the Prophet Musa (as) and the believers with him:
We revealed to Musa: "Travel with Our servants by night. You will certainly be pursued." Pharaoh sent marshals into the cities: "These people are a small group and we find them irritating and we constitute a vigilant majority." We expelled them from gardens and springs, from treasures and a splendid situation. So it was! And We bequeathed them to the tribe of Israel. So they pursued them towards the east. (Qur'an, 26:52-60)
As revealed in the Qur'an, the two communities met at the edge of the sea following this pursuit. Allah divided the sea and saved the Prophet Musa (as) and the believers with him, destroying Pharaoh and his people. This aid from Allah is revealed thus:
So We revealed to Musa, "Strike the sea with your staff." And it split in two, each part like a towering cliff. And We brought the others right up to it. We rescued Musa and all those who were with him. Then We drowned the rest. There is certainly a Sign in that yet most of them are not believers. Truly your Lord is the Almighty, the Most Merciful. [Quran, 26:63-68]
The map shows the route taken by the Prophet Musa (as) after leaving Egypt and the estimated location of the site where the sea divided.
The diagram shows the shallow and deeper areas. It is at this point that the Sinai Peninsula and Arabia approach each other most closely.
In connection with this subject, the following account has recently been found in papyruses from the time of Pharaoh:
From Amenamoni, head of the protective books of the white room of the palace, to the scribe Penterhor:
When this letter reaches you and has been read point by point, surrender your heart to the sharpest pain, like a leaf before the storm, when you learn of the sorrowful disaster of the drowning in the whirlpool????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦
Calamity struck him suddenly and inescapably. Depict the destruction of the lords, the lord of the tribes, the king of the east and the west. The sleep in the waters has made something helpless out of something great. What news can compare to the news I have sent you?202
This miracle, experienced by the Prophet Musa (as) and the Children of Israel as they crossed the Red Sea, has been the subject of many studies. Archaeological investigations have established not only the path taken to the Red Sea after leaving Egypt, but also that the place where Pharaoh and the Prophet Musa (as) and his tribe met was one surrounded by mountains. (Allah knows best.)
The mountain known as Jabal-al Musa is generally regarded as being in the Sinai Peninsula. However, recent findings have shown that it is actually on the Arabian shore of the Red Sea.
Following a long and difficult journey for the Prophet Musa (as) and the Israelites, a passage out between the mountains could be seen.
That part of the Sinai Peninsula opening onto the Gulf.
Following a great deal of study and investigation taking this as the starting point, scientists came to striking conclusions with regard to how the sea was divided into two. These conclusions are in full agreement with those revealed in the Qur'an. The way that historical events described in the Qur'an are today illuminated by historical records is without doubt an important miracle of the book of Islam.
Pharaoh????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s royal chariot is on display in a museum in Egypt. A similar example was found during excavations in the location where the sea divided.
According to the study which was published in the Bulletin of the Russian Academy of Sciences, there was a reef, which was close to the surface in the Red Sea at that time. From there, the scientists set about establishing the speed of the wind and the strength of the storm needed to leave the reef high and dry at low tide. As a result, it became apparent that a wind speed of 30 metres per second would have caused the sea to retract, leaving the reef exposed. Naum Volzinger, of the Institute of Oceanography of the Russian Academy of Sciences, stated that "if the [east] wind blew all night at a speed of 30 metres per second then the reef would be dry." He also said that "it would take the Jews-there were 600,000 of them-four hours to cross the 7 kilometre reef that runs from one coast to another????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦ then, in half an hour, the waters would come back."203 In addition, Volzinger said that he and his colleague Androsov studied the issue strictly from Isaac Newton's point of view. As he put it, "I am convinced that God rules the Earth through the laws of physics."204
It must not be forgotten that there is always a possibility of this natural phenomenon taking place. If Allah so desires, this miracle can take place again when the requisite conditions-such as windspeed, time and place-are met. However, the truly miraculous aspect here is the fact that these events took place just when the Prophet Musa (as) and his tribe were about to be vanquished. The fact that the waters withdrew just as the Prophet Musa (as) and the community with him were about to cross them-not to mention the way that the waters returned just as Pharaoh and his army were crossing-is a clear example of the aid that Allah gives to the faithful. Indeed, the way that the Prophet Musa (as) relied on and trusted in Allah is an example of the most pleasing moral values:
And when the two hosts came into sight of one another Musa's companions said, "We will surely be overtaken!" He said, "Never! My Lord is with me and He will guide me." [Quran, 26:61-62]
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Mon 13 Nov, 2006 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Mon 13 Nov, 2006 9:59 am
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
We have a person who fell from the tenth floor, mathematics say, that person must die, however in reality though we have many possibilities:
1) the person will die instantly
2) the person will have minor injuries
3) the person will have no scratch
No. Mathematics will not say that.
See, what my point was that Mathematics, physics, chemistry, they all are STUDIES of LAWS. These LAWS are unchanging and rigid. That's why we can study them, use them, and predict what will happen.
A person who falls from a ten story building CAN die, but a scientific (mathematical) prediction would take into account all the deciding factors. For example the weight of the person, the shape of his body, the hardness of the surface he falls on...all these will be studied.
We can only make the prediction based on these constant laws.
But if you are talking about supernatural intervention, then I cannot agree with you.
I don't think God interferes with His laws and our lives in this manner.
Every cause has an appropriate effect. If a person falls, and he should die, then he will die.
Quote:
good but please before you do that you have to show me first other books like it then I may accept your statement that you take it as other books
see your statement is flawed because there is no other book like it, so how the hell you take it like other books?
What I meant was that I look at the Quran as a man made book. Not as a divine book. I may come to the conclusion that these are God's words. But when I read it, I read it assuming nothing. I don't assume that it's author was perfect. What it means is:
I want to verify everything it says. I want proof of everything it claims. That's all.
Quote:
So you agree that if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man who said :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? I am going to tell you a true story.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means that the story must have happened ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Because there is no need for me to include the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????TRUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, while it is not true, remember we are assuming that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if you doubt that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful, then all you need is to verify my claim, which I say fair enough
I doubt that the Quran is truthful. We should all have that doubt. Without that doubt, we will blindly believe what it says, which is going against it's very message.
I like to learn from everything that happens to me. I have found the Quran to be a great source for spiritual guidance (and maybe even more). That's why I want to study it.
Now to 3:62
This is the true account:, And there is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
BTW, account = story or narration
If you read the verses before it, and after it (taking it in context), it is talking about the account of Jesus. I will continue this later...
Posted:
Mon 13 Nov, 2006 2:46 pm
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Posts: 31
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So...3:62 is talking about Jesus, and the passage is talking about the quran as a whole.
It is saying that the quran is the truth from God.
As I explained earlier, if something is "true" it doesn't necessarily mean it actually happened.
But if I do take your word for it. If I do believe that the quran is saying that they happened in reality, then I will have to say that the quran is probably lying. There is no evidence that anything like this ever happened. And some events are not even logical.
I cannot verify this claim.
But maybe I'll give the quran the benefit of the doubt and say that it's possible that these stories happened. It's possible. But at least right now, I can't know for sure. So I will not focus on something I can never know.
I'll focus on what I can know, and that is the symbolic meanings of these stories. Whether they actually happened or not is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the lesson. The lesson is there regardless.
Posted:
Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:57 pm
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
if this makes me a kafir by your standards, so be it.
let me ask you this:
If I was to tell you a story about a man who got kidnapped by magic penguins in the middle of a desert, would you believe me?
If not, then why do you believe the quran?
I know that you believe these stories because you believe the quran is the word of god. But how did you come to the conclusion that it is the word of god?
Posted:
Tue 14 Nov, 2006 12:18 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Quote:
We have a person who fell from the tenth floor, mathematics say, that person must die, however in reality though we have many possibilities:
1) the person will die instantly
2) the person will have minor injuries
3) the person will have no scratch
phoenix1 wrote:
No. Mathematics will not say that.
Really?
phoenix1 wrote:
See, what my point was that Mathematics, physics, chemistry, they all are STUDIES of LAWS. These LAWS are unchanging and rigid. That's why we can study them, use them, and predict what will happen.
and how about death then?
Or death is not one of universal laws? Sorry I mean one of the laws in the matrix book
phoenix1 wrote:
A person who falls from a ten story building CAN die, but a scientific (mathematical) prediction would take into account all the deciding factors. For example the weight of the person, the shape of his body, the hardness of the surface he falls on...all these will be studied.
We can only make the prediction based on these constant laws.
Excuse me, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m talking about identical circumstances, i.e. two same weight persons hit the same ground at the same bloody angle, how about the cancer example then?
phoenix1 wrote:
But if you are talking about supernatural intervention, then I cannot agree with you.
I don't think God interferes with His laws and our lives in this manner.
Really so if someone wants to kill another one and shoot him in head, would that person dies according to a bullet in the head or according to his/her term appointed by Allah?
Of course if term is not finished yet then that person will live even if been shot 10 bullets in the head
See bro, mathematics tells us that if a projectile punctured your skull and your brain at a speed of 600 km /h = death
See Allah always intervene, in fact that is what Allah said exactly:
Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty. [The Quran ; 22:40]
الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا مِن دِيَارِهِمْ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلَّا أَن يَقُولُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُم بِبَعْضٍ لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ اللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ (40)
-> See how Allah interferes: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause;????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
In fact in was said boldly in many locations, here is one:
But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds. [The Quran ; 81:29]
وَمَا تَشَاؤُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاء اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ (29)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, this means Allah interferes with everything we do
phoenix1 wrote:
Every cause has an appropriate effect. If a person falls, and he should die, then he will die.
and who will cause that death, is it coincidence or Allah?
Quote:
good but please before you do that you have to show me first other books like it then I may accept your statement that you take it as other books
see your statement is flawed because there is no other book like it, so how the hell you take it like other books?
phoenix1 wrote:
What I meant was that I look at the Quran as a man made book.
Mate, that was one hell of a lie, please tell me who wrote the Quran?
For example :
1) Luke wrote Luke????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s Gospel
2) Mark wrote Mark????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s Gospel
3) John wrote John????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s Gospel
4) Mathew wrote Mathew????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s Gospel
5) Barnaba wrote Barnaba????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s Gospel
6) Bukhari wrote Bukhari hadiths
7) Muslim wrote Mulsim hadiths
8) J.K. Rowling wrote Harry Potter
Now before you promote lies, can you please VERIFY it first then come back and tell me:
Who is the human author of the Quran?
Thank you
phoenix1 wrote:
Not as a divine book.
Possibly like Harry Potter books?
phoenix1 wrote:
I may come to the conclusion that these are God's words.
hmmm, it won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t really happen until Allah wills, see, He is interfering with your own affairs
phoenix1 wrote:
But when I read it, I read it assuming nothing.
BS, you read it assuming that it is authored by a human while you failed so far to tell us who that human is?
phoenix1 wrote:
I don't assume that it's author was perfect. What it means is:
I want to verify everything it says. I want proof of everything it claims. That's all.
Great, now you need to look for some sort or a time machine to fly back into the past and verify the splitting of the sea, good luck with that, but please try to find a decent Time Machine like the one Michael J Fox used, otherwise you may not be able to come back to the future, But I hope you enjoy life in the past,, opps I mean you enjoy your life in the past before you were born
Quote:
So you agree that if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man who said :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? I am going to tell you a true story.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means that the story must have happened ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Because there is no need for me to include the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????TRUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, while it is not true, remember we are assuming that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if you doubt that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful, then all you need is to verify my claim, which I say fair enough
phoenix1 wrote:
I doubt that the Quran is truthful.
Good, so you doubt that the Quran is not saying the truth, now I need to ask you a few questions:
1) how long you have been doubting that the Quran is not truthful?
2) what is the merit behind your doubt?
3) have you ever discovered a single mistake in the Quran?
phoenix1 wrote:
We should all have that doubt.
Excuse me, can you speak for yourself regarding this matter, it seems you are talking on behalf of all humanity, for me I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t have the slightest atom weight of doubt that the Quran is truthful
phoenix1 wrote:
Without that doubt, we will blindly believe what it says,
and bloody oath, without a single proof that the Quran is not truthful and is made by a human, you will be following Satan blindly indeed
phoenix1 wrote:
which is going against it's very message.
Excuse me bro, can you show me that very message, I hope you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t come back with 17:36, but you are welcome to do so
phoenix1 wrote:
I like to learn from everything that happens to me.
Good, you also are learning very well from Satan, good luck with that
phoenix1 wrote:
I have found the Quran to be a great source for spiritual guidance (and maybe even more). That's why I want to study it.
Ok, but how a great source of spiritual guidance may not be truthful? Are you following conjectures only or what bro? sound a bit confused to me
phoenix1 wrote:
Now to 3:62
This is the true account:, And there is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
phoenix1 wrote:
BTW, account = story or narration
If you read the verses before it, and after it (taking it in context), it is talking about the account of Jesus. I will continue this later...
What a refute that was bro, but believe me I expected that you come and say just that, unfortunately you missed something very vital, the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Qasas????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? is PLURAL and in the context it means the whole stories in the Quran, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s look at another example:
: We narrate to you the best of stories, by Our revealing to you this Quran, though before this you were certainly one of those who did not know.
-> See who is the one telling us the story, it is Allah not our granny:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? نَحْنُ نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ أَحْسَنَ الْقَصَصِ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? : We narrate to you the best of stories????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, can you see the word Qasas?, these stories must be in the Quran :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? by Our revealing to you this Quran????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now if the story of splitting the sea for example never happened and it was just like my granny before sleep story, why Allah say that :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? though before this you were certainly one of those who did not know????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, did not know what exactly?, did not know about the story that never happened, hahahahahahahah, mate your logic is just so Tom and Jerry, sorry
Let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s look at another example:
We did aforetime send messengers before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any messenger to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah: but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods. [The Quran ; 40:78]
وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِّن قَبْلِكَ مِنْهُم مَّن قَصَصْنَا عَلَيْكَ وَمِنْهُم مَّن لَّمْ نَقْصُصْ عَلَيْكَ وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ فَإِذَا جَاء أَمْرُ اللَّهِ قُضِيَ بِالْحَقِّ وَخَسِرَ هُنَالِكَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ (78)
-> Let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s follow the logic in here:
A) the verse starts by Allah telling Mohammad :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? We did aforetime send messengers before thee:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. Allah sent messnegers before Mohammad, now Allah is telling Mohammad this :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? مِنْهُم مَّن قَصَصْنَا عَلَيْكَ وَمِنْهُم مَّن لَّمْ نَقْصُصْ عَلَيْكَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now you have been cornered again brother Walid, see Allah is telling Mohammad that He sent messengers before him AND THE STORIES OF SOME OF THOSE MESSNEGERS WERE TOLD TO HIM IN THE QURAN, how can this make any sense if the stories of these messengers sent before Mohammad didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t happen for real?
Mate, please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t try to answer that and waste my time and yours, there is no doubt that all the stories of the prophets in the Quran are 100% real as our God told us, it is you who is listening to Satan thinking that you can verify it yourself while disregarding the account Allah has given in regards to these stories,
Finally you say that 3:62 is only referring to the story of Jesus and not the whole stories in the Quran, I say you are 100% wrong, but let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s assume you are right, would that mean for you that the story of Jesus happened for real, or do you still need to verify?, i guess if you need to verify it then it is about time to ride your Time Machine bro, but please come back so we continue after you show us your findings, can you please take a camera with you, cheers
Now I said you are wrong 100% in regards to 3:62, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s have a look at it again and see where you got it wrong:
This is the true account:, And there is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise. [The Quran ; 3:62]
إِنَّ هَذَا لَهُوَ الْقَصَصُ الْحَقُّ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَإِنَّ اللّهَ لَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ (62)
-> Can you see the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Haza????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if you can then I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure you you know by now where you got it wrong, or do you want me to elaborate?
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Tue 14 Nov, 2006 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Tue 14 Nov, 2006 12:19 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
So...3:62 is talking about Jesus, and the passage is talking about the quran as a whole.
sorry, you are mixing two things while the verse is talking about one thing bro "HAZA"
is it the story of Jesus or is it all the stories in the Quran?
phoenix1 wrote:
It is saying that the quran is the truth from God.
excuase me, it never said Al Quran, it only said "Al Qasas Al Haqq", are you blind or what mate?
phoenix1 wrote:
As I explained earlier, if something is "true" it doesn't necessarily mean it actually happened.
Non sense, if the context is about a story in the past and Allah told us that the story is true "Haqq" then it must have happened in the past, if Allah is telling us about a true story in the future then yes it didn't happen in the past but it will happen in the future 100%
phoenix1 wrote:
But if I do take your word for it. If I do believe that the quran is saying that they happened in reality, then I will have to say that the quran is probably lying
you are really confused mate because anyone on earth must be a liar then, this must cover everything not just the Quran
phoenix1 wrote:
There is no evidence that anything like this ever happened.
BS, there are many evidences that they happened, it is your veil that is not allowing you to see them, I hope Allah blesses you and removes that veil, but I tell you bro it will never happen with that much arrogance you have against His words, good luck to ya
phoenix1 wrote:
And some events are not even logical.
Total Danish style unfouded BS, why not, you tell us about all those illogical events?
phoenix1 wrote:
I cannot verify this claim.
so if you can't verify the stories you will never believe it, hey this makes you an unbeliever, that is funny indeed
phoenix1 wrote:
But maybe I'll give the quran the benefit of the doubt and say that it's possible that these stories happened.
I thought it is a must to give anything the benefit of the doubt untill proven the contrary of whatever claim said about it, in your case though it is just A MAYBE that you give the benefit of the doubt to the Quran, how fair you are to yourself bro?
phoenix1 wrote:
It's possible. But at least right now, I can't know for sure. So I will not focus on something I can never know.
Yeh i know bro, I feel for you indeed, it is called THE VEIL
phoenix1 wrote:
I'll focus on what I can know,
Great thing to do, I suggest to focus on the Matrix
phoenix1 wrote:
and that is the symbolic meanings of these stories. Whether they actually happened or not is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the lesson. The lesson is there regardless.
good idea, now I ask you please, LIST FOR ME ALL THE LESSONS YOU LEARNT FROM EACH STORY IN THE QURAN (MESSENGERS ONLY)
Take your time bro, no rush but I will be eager to read your reply to the list of the lessons learnt from each messenger story mentioned in the Quran
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
3:62 might be talking about Jesus, since other translations (like QXP) translate it that way.
The quran has stories.
The stories contain truth.
So the quran contains the truth. So the verse was talking about the quran, just not directly.
"The Matrix is true." This sentence does not mean or imply that the matrix story actually happened. Think about it.
And there is no veil. There are many illogical things in the Quran.
There is NO proof. None. You can never prove that the red sea actually split in two. You can never prove that there are invisible beings who whisper to us. You can never prove that Musa's stick turned into a snake. If there is evidence, please show me some of it or direct me toward it. Because I don't see it. Jesus didn't perform any miracles, either.
Not only is there no evidence, there can't be any evidence, since the quran never gives us a time or place for these stories. They are in past tense, and that's all we know.
I'm not going to list for you all the lessons. And what I'm going to say isn't important because you have already decided that I'm wearing a veil and that I am a "kafir."
I'll give you one example: the story of Adam is about how we should control our emotions to live a better life. to be at peace.
Now why don't you tell me what you learn from invisible beings, seas being split in half, sticks turning into snakes?
And please answer my question. What is the reason that you believe the quran is the perfect word of God (don't point out verses)?
Posted:
Tue 14 Nov, 2006 4:19 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
if this makes me a kafir by your standards, so be it.
But it makes me sad though, don't even think that I will be happy that you or anyone else commits an act of Kufr or Shirk, I'm not sad for Him rather sad for you
phoenix1 wrote:
let me ask you this:
If I was to tell you a story about a man who got kidnapped by magic penguins in the middle of a desert, would you believe me?
of course not
phoenix1 wrote:
If not, then why do you believe the quran?
because it was not you who wrote it, nor any human for that matter, therefore I have to give it the benefit of the doubt that it is divine until a human comes forwars and claim that the Quran is his/hers on that day I will have to invistigate the claim proposed ut until then the Quran must belong to the only entity that claimed to be the Author and so far only Allah said that He is the Author
now if me and you are gettin pissed in a bar and suddenly someone honest found a 100 bucks bill, that pissed man decided to annouce if someone one lost 100 bucks
now if only one person out of all those pissed ones comes and claim to be the owner of that money, then it has to be his, if two persons claim to own the 100 bucks then we have a problem
with the Quran though we don't have a problem, because we have only Allah claimed to be the Author, on the other hand you claim that someone who is unknown is the author, I guess that unknown one must be living in your Barbie world possibly "Kim"
phoenix1 wrote:
I know that you believe these stories because you believe the quran is the word of god.
Let's apply the simple law 1+1=2
I believe in the Quran as the word of the UNSEEN Allah and I believe that all the UNSEEN stories mentioned in it are true unless stated otherwise + 2:2-5 = a believer
Let's have another look:
2: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
3: Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
4: And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
5: They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.[/size]
[The Quran ; 2:2-5]
[B] ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ (2)
-> See, "This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;", for you though this book is a possible lie made by an unknown human
-> See, "Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.", do you believe in the UNSEEN God ?, do you believe in the UNSEEN stories in the past and in the future He told us in His guidance that is sent to us?, do you pray bro?
-> See, " And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.", do you believe that the Quran was revealed to Mohammad ?, do you believe in the other scripture Allah sent prior to the Quran ?, do you believe in Hell and Pardaise promised on the JD ?
-> If you answer Yes to all the above then you are one of those :"They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper."
other than that bro you are a clear cut unbeliever and please don't fool yourself or should I say don't let Satan fools you that much
phoenix1 wrote:
But how did you come to the conclusion that it is the word of god?
That is another subject that requires a few weeks to debate and I don't want to get mixed up untill we finsh this subject
either you concede or I concede or we agree to disagree then we move on to the next subject however you can not repeat the arguments that we agreed to disagree on it
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
because it was not you who wrote it, nor any human for that matter, therefore I have to give it the benefit of the doubt that it is divine until a human comes forwars and claim that the Quran is his/hers on that day I will have to invistigate the claim proposed ut until then the Quran must belong to the only entity that claimed to be the Author and so far only Allah said that He is the Author
now if me and you are gettin pissed in a bar and suddenly someone honest found a 100 bucks bill, that pissed man decided to annouce if someone one lost 100 bucks
now if only one person out of all those pissed ones comes and claim to be the owner of that money, then it has to be his, if two persons claim to own the 100 bucks then we have a problem
with the Quran though we don't have a problem, because we have only Allah claimed to be the Author, on the other hand you claim that someone who is unknown is the author, I guess that unknown one must be living in your Barbie world possibly "Kim"
Have you ever thought of the possibility that maybe a person wrote this and claimed it was from God so that people would think he is a special prophet? You can't take the quran's words and just believe them. You have to verify them just like everything else.
But let's suppose that I claim to be the author of the Quran, what will you do then?
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