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Al-Quraishi
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Salam all,

This 1 on 1 will be discussing the miracle of Code 19 supposedly contained within the Qur'an. Edip Yuksel will be presenting for us the Miracle of Code 19 with evidences. Refutations will be put forth by Ahmed Baghat.

For Code 19: Edip Yuksel
Against Code 19: Ahmed Baghat
Presiding Judge: Al-Quraishi


Last edited by Al-Quraishi on Wed 25 Apr, 2007 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Great bro

Welcome to brother Edip to start his presentation any time

Cheers

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Code 19

(Summary from upcoming book On it 19, Edip Yuksel)

The miraculous function of the number 19 prophesized in Chapter 74 was unveiled in 1974 through a computerized analysis of the Quran. Though, in retrospect, the implication of 19 in Chapter 74 traditionally called Hidden One, were obvious, it remained a secret for 1406 (19x74) lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. Ironically, the first words of the Chapter 74, The Hidden One, was revealing, yet the code was a divinely guarded gift allocated to the computer generation; they were the one who would need and appreciate it the most. As we have demonstrated in various books, hundreds of simple and complex algorithms, we witness the depth and breath of mathematical manipulation of Arabic, an arbitrary human language, to be profound and extraordinary.

This is the fulfillment of a Quranic challenge (17:88). While the meaning of the Quranic text and its literal excellence was kept, all its units, from chapters, verses, words to its letters were also assigned universally recognizable roles in creation of mathematical patterns. Since its discovery, the number 19 of the Quran and the Bible has increased the faith of many believers, has removed doubts in the minds of many People of the Book, and has caused discord, controversy and chaos among those who have traded the Quran with men-made sectarian teachings. This is indeed a fulfillment of a Quranic prophecy (74:30-31).

Various verses of the Quran mention an important miracle that will appear after its revelation.

They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you." (10:20)

This is a reminder for the world. And you will certainly find out in awhile. (38:87-88)

We will show them our signs/miracles in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things? (41:53)

The beginning of Chapter 25 refers to the arguments of the opponents who denied the divine nature of the Quran:

Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood. They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night." (25:4-5)

The awaited miracle, the hidden mathematical structure

The subsequent verse gives an enigmatic answer to the assertion of those who claimed that the Quran is manmade.

Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the SECRET in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Merciful." (25:6)

How can knowing the secret ? constitute an answer for those who assert that the Quran is Muhammad's work? Will the proof or evidence of the divine authorship of the Quran remain a secret known by God alone? Or, will the antagonists be rebuffed by that divine mystery? If there should be a relationship between the objection and answer, then we can infer from the above verse that a SECRET will demonstrate the divine nature of the Quran.

The miracle promised throughout the Quran might have been destined to appear after Muhammad's death:

We have sent messengers before you, and we made them husbands with wives and children. No messenger can produce a miracle without God's authorization, and in accordance with a specific, predetermined time. God erases and fixes whatever He wills. With Him is the original Master Record. Whether we show you some of what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is on us the reckoning. (13:38-40)

The last phrase of verse 13:40 quoted above is interesting, The meaning of this phrase becomes clearer after the discovery of Code 19, since the Arabic word HeSaaB ? refers to both the day of judgment ? and numerical computation" The deliberate use of multi-meaning words is very common in the Quran. For instance, the word AaYAh ? occurs 84 times in the Quran and in all occurrences it means miracle, ? sign ? or law"However, its plural form AaYAat ? also means revelation ? or verses of the Quran"This unique usage equates minimum three verses of the Quran (in Arabic, a different form is used for duality) with miracle. It also pulls our attention to the parallelism between God's signs/laws in the universe and God's revelation in human language: they share the same source and the same truth. In the following verse the plural word AaYAat ? is used not to mean revelation ? but miracle, sign or physical manifestation ?:

Are they waiting for the angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some physical manifestations of your Lord? The day this happens, no person will benefit from believing if it did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, "Keep on waiting; we too are waiting." (6:158)

The verse 30 of Chapter 74, Al-Muddassir (The Hidden/The Secret) of the Quran reads exactly, Over it Nineteen. ? The entire chapter is about the number 19. Let's read the chapter from the beginning.

In the Name of God, Gracious, Merciful

1. O you the hidden one!
2. Come out and warn.
3. Extol your Lord.
4. Purify your garment.
5. Forsake what is wrong.
6. Be content with your lot.
7. Be steadfast for your Lord.
8. When the declaration is made.
9. That will be a difficult day.
10. For the disbelievers, not easy.
11. Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
12. I provided him with lots of wealth.
13. And children to behold.
14. I made everything easy for him.
15. Yet, he is greedy for more.
16. He stubbornly rejected our revelations/miracles.
17. I will commit him to an uphill task.
18. For he reflected, then decided.
19. Miserable is what he decided.
20. Miserable indeed is what he decided.
21. He looked.
22. He frowned and whined.
23. Then he turned away arrogantly.
24. He said, "This is but impressive/old magic!
25. "This is nothing but word of human."
26. I will commit him to Saqar.
27. Do you know what Saqar is?
28. It is not more, not less (precise).
29. Succeeding manifestations/obvious for people (universal).
30. Over it is nineteen.

The punishment issued for the opponent is very interesting: nineteen. Almost all numbers mentioned in the Quran is an adjective for a noun. Forty nights, seven heavens, four months, twelve leaders. But here the numerical function of nineteen is emphasized. Nineteen does not define or describe anything. The disbeliever will be subjected to the number nineteen itself. Then, what is the mission or function of this nineteen? Those who tended to understand the meaning of Saqar as hell ? naturally understood it as the number of guardians of hell. However, the punishment that is described with phrases such as, difficult task, precise, and universal manifestations, was an intellectual punishment; a mathematical challenge. Indeed, the following verse isolates the number nineteen from the number of angels and lists five goals for it.

31. We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews, (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills (or, whoever wills), and guides whomever He wills (or, whoever wills). None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. It is a reminder for the people.

Traditional commentators of the Quran had justifiably grappled with understanding this verse. They thought that disbelievers would be punished by 19 guardians of hell. That was fine. But they could not explain how the number of guardians of hell would increase the faith of believers and convince the skeptical Christians and Jews regarding the divine nature of the Quran. Finding no answer to this question, they tried some explanations: the Christians and Jews would believe in the Quran since they would see that the number of guardians of hell is also nineteen in their scripture. Witnessing the conversion of Christians and Jews, the faith of Muslims would increase.

This orthodox commentary has three major problems. First, neither the Old, nor the New Testament mentions number nineteen as the guardians of hell. Second, even if there was such a similar statement, this would not remove their doubts but to the contrary, it would increase their doubts since they would consider it one of the many evidences supporting their claim that the Quran plagiarized many stories from the Bible. Indeed, there are many Biblical events are told by the Quran, though occasionally with some differences. Third, none so far converted to Islam because of guardians of hell.

Some scholars noticed this flaw in traditional commentaries. For instance, Fahraddin el-Razi, in his classic commentary offered many speculations, including that the number nineteen indicates the nineteen intellectual faculty of human being. Tough it is a clever interpretation, but it fails to explain the emphasis on the number nineteen itself and it also fails to substantiate the speculation.

The following verses emphasized the crucial function of number nineteen:

32. Absolutely, by the moon.
33. And the night as it passes.
34. And the morning as it shines.
35. This is one of the greatest (miracles).
36. A warning to people.
37. For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.

The purpose of oath ? statements in the Quran is not similar to their common usage. The Quran uses oath to pull our attention to a divine sign or a lesson in the subject matter. The Quran does not use the statements of oath to make us believe, but to make us think (see: 89:5). The passing of the night and the shining of the morning are obviously allegories used to indicate an intellectual enlightenment or salvation. But the expression by the Moon ? is literal and it pulls our attention to the relationship of the Moon and the number nineteen. The year Apollo 11 astronauts dug Moon's surface and brought a piece of the Moon to the Earth, the same year, a biochemist named Dr. Rashad Khalifa started feeding the Quran into a computer in St. Louis, which would end up in the discovery of Code 19. This might be considered a mere coincidence, but a Quranic verse implies the correlation between the two events.

The Hour has come closer, and the moon was split. Then they saw a miracle; but they turned away and said, "Old magic"They disbelieved, followed their wishful thinking, and adhered totheir old traditions. Sufficient warnings have been delivered to alert them. Great wisdom; but all the warnings have been in vain. (54:1-5)

Let's continue the reading of Chapter 74 (The Hidden):

38. Every person is trapped by its sins
39. Except for those on the right
40. While in Paradise, they will ask
41. About the guilty
42. "What brought you to this retribution
43. They will say, "We did not observe the contact prayers (Salat
44. "We did not feed the poor
45. "We blundered with the blunderers
46. "We disbelieved in the Day of Judgment
47. "Until certainty came to us now
48. The intercession of the intercessors will never help them
49. Why are they so averse to this reminder

How can someone who does not believe in the day of judgement belive in intercession? Those who believe in the intercession of saints and prophets on their behalf surely believe or at least claim to believe in the day of judgment. Nevertheless, according to the Quranic definition of the Day of Judgment ? a person cannot simultanously belive in both intercession and the Day of Judgment. The Quran defines the Day of Judgement ? as the day that no person can help another person, and all decisions, on that day, will belong to God"(82:19). That day neither Muhammad nor Ahmad, neither Jesus nor Mary, neither Ali nor Wali can help those who reject the number nineteen, its role and implication in the Quran.

Running Like Zebras

The last section of Chapter 74 (The Hidden) likens those who turns away from the message of nineteen to zebras runing away from a lion.

49. Why are they so averse to this reminder
50. Running like zebras
51. Who are fleeing from the lion
52. Does each one of them want to receive the scripture personally
53. Indeed, they do not fear the Hereafter
54. Indeed, this is a reminder
55. For those who wish to take heed
56. They cannot take heed against God's will. He is the source of righteousness; He is the source of forgiveness.

Numerous books and articles rejecting the importance of the number nineteen in the Quran have been published in many languages worldwide. Some of the publications were freely distributed by the support of petrol-rich countries, such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?

Dr. Rashad Khalifa did not have any knowledge that his curiosity regarding the meaning of the alphabet letters that initialize 29 chapters of the Quran would end up with the discovery of its mathematical system. His computerized study that started in 1969 gave its fruits in 1974 by the discovery of the 14 century old SECRET.

If the Code 19 was going to provide strong evidence for the existence of God and for the authenticity of the Quran, then it is reasonable to expect that the identity of the discoverer and the time of the discovery would not be coincidental. Indeed, the events have demonstrated a prophetic design in the timing of this miraculous mathematical design.

The number 19 is mentioned only in a chapter known "The Hidden," the 74th chapter of the Quran. Juxtaposing these two numbers yields 1974, exactly the year in which the code was deciphered. (Calendar based on the birth of Jesus and the solar year are accepted by the Quran as units of calculating time. See, 19:33; 43:61; 18:24. Besides, this is the most commonly used calendar in the world.) If we multiply these two numbers, 19x74, we end up with 1406, the exact number of lunar years between the revelation of the Quran and the discovery of the code. Adding to this prophetic mathematical design is the fact that the derivatives of the name of the discoverer, RShD (guidance), occurs in the Quran exactly 19 times. (See 2:186; 2:256; 4:6; 7:146; 11:78; 11:87; 11:97; 18:10; 18:17; 18:24; 18:66; 21:51; 40:29; 40:38; 49:7; 72:2; 72:10; 72:14; 72:21.). The exact form, Rashad, occurs twice and they sandwich the claim of unappreciative people who wish to limit the messengership (4:29-38). The relationship between the following five elements, in our opinion, is more than interesting.

The mathematical code (19).
The number of the chapter mentioning the code (74).
The year of the discovery of the code (1974).
The number of lunar years between the revelation of the Quran and the year of the discovery (19x74).
The frequency of derivatives of discoverer's name in the Quran (19).
The context of the verses where the exact name of the discoverer is mentioned as adjective (40:28-38).

The first two verses of Chapter 74 is about the revealing of the secret. It is interesting that if we consider one version of spelling the first word, which contains three Alifs instead of two, the number of letters in these two verses is 19. More interestingly, when we add the numerical values of each letter in these two verses the sum is a very familiar number.

Here is the value of each letter:

Y = 10
A = 1
A = 1
Y = 10
H = 5
A = 1

A = 1
L = 30
M = 40
D = 4
TH = 500
R = 200

Q = 100
M = 40

F = 80
A = 1
N = 50
Z = 700
R = 200

Total: 1974

1974 is the year when the hidden secret came out and warned us!
At the right time, we will produce for them a creature, made of earthly materials, declaring that the people are not certain about our revelations/miracles. The day will come when we summon from every community some of those who did not believe in our revelations/ miracles, forcibly. When they arrive, He will say, "You have rejected My revelations/miracles, before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?" They will incur the requital for their wickedness; they will say nothing. (27:82-85)

Code 19: The Real Bible Code

"No, don't you see? This would be different. This isn't just starting the universe out with some precise mathematical laws that determine physics and chemistry. This is a message. Whoever makes the universe hides messages in transcendental numbers so they'll be read fifteen billion years later when intelligent life finally evolves. I criticized you and Rankin the time we first met for not understanding this. 'If God wanted us to know that he existed, why didn't he send us an unambiguous message?' I asked. Remember?"

"I remember very well. You think God is a mathematician."

"Something like that. If what we're told is true. If this isn't a wild-goose chase. If there's a message hiding in pi and not one of the infinity of other transcendental numbers. That's a lot of ifs."

"You're looking for Revelation in arithmetic. I know a better way."

"Palmer, this is the only way. This is the only thing that would convince a skeptic. Imagine we find something. It doesn't have to be tremendously complicated. Just something more orderly than could accumulate by chance that many digits into pi. That's all we need. Then mathematicians all over the world can find exactly the same pattern or message or whatever it proves to be. Then there are no sectarian divisions. Everybody begins reading the same Scripture. No one could then argue that the key miracle in the religion was some conjurer's trick, or that later historians had falsified the record, or that it's just hysteria or delusion or a substitute parent for when we grow up. Everyone could be a believer." (Sagan, Carl. Contact. Simon and Schuster. New York: 1985, p 418-419)

The above excerpts are quoted from CONTACT, a book by Dr. Carl Sagan the late astronomer who became popular with the TV series, Cosmos. Sagan's CONTACT is a novel expression of philosopher's prime dream: Mathematical evidence for God's existence.

Mathematics is considered as an a priori, that is knowledge gained independently of experience. Most of the philosophers highly relied on mathematics. Descartes who employed extreme doubt as a method to reach the knowledge (certainty) could not doubt from mathematics. The language of mathematics is universal.

The Most Controversial Concept

Hindus believe that he is incarnated in many human beings. Christians pontificate that he has multiple personalities, one of them being sacrificed for humanity. Jews assert that he is Jehovah. Muslims claim that he is Allah. Many question his gender. Millions die for him, millions fight for him, millions cry for him. Clergymen use his name as a trademark for their business, and the very same name motivates many devotees to give away their belongings as charity. Many joyfully sing songs for his love, and others outrageously declare dialectic or scientific wars against him. Some even exclaim that he is no longer alive.

Volume upon volume of books were published for and against him. Big lies were attributed to him while scientific hoaxes were arranged to deny him. He is in the courts, he is on the money, he is in the schools, he is in the mind of saints and in the mouth of hypocrites. Yes, he is everywhere. And yet, philosophers continuously question his existence. In fact, world religions, with numerous versions of odd gods, have not helped philosophers prove his existence. On the contrary, they created further intellectual problems and logical obstacles for questioning minds who try to reach him.

The Prime Evidence

The "prime" evidence comes in the form of a highly sophisticated mathematical code embedded in an ancient document. Computer decoding of this document was originally started by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, a biochemist, in 1969. In 1974, this study unveiled an intricate mathematical pattern based on a prime number. (Having interested with the subject the author, like many others, I examined Dr. Khalifa's findings and assisted him in his further research.)*

For more than 14 centuries it was a hidden secret in the most read yet one of the most ignored books, the Quran (The Book of Recitation), until 1974. The discovery of the code not only explained many verses, but it also exposed the diabolic nature of sectarian teachings and the work of clergymen.

With the computer decoding of the Quran, summarized below, the argument for the existence of God gained an examinable physical evidence. Although the Quran had been in existence for fourteen centuries, its mathematical code remained a secret until computer decoding became possible. As it turned out, the code ranges from extreme simplicity to a complex, interlocking intricacy. Thus, it can be appreciated by persons with limited education, as well as scholars.

This ancient document is the Quran, revealed to Muhammad of Arabia early in the seventh century as The Final Testament. The following is a condensed summary of this unique literary code. Please note that one does not need to know Arabic, the original language of the Quran, to examine most of the evidences presented below. For some of them one may only need to recognize the 28 letters of the Arabic alphabet.

The Message For The Computer Generation

Chapter 74 of the Quran is dedicated to the PRIME number 19. This chapter is titled "Al-Muddassir" (The Hidden Secret). The number 19 is specifically mentioned in that Chapter as a "punishment" for those who state that the scripture is human-made (74:25). This number is also called "One of the greatest portents" (74:35). In 74:31, the purpose of the number 19 is described: to remove all doubts regarding the authenticity of the Quran, to increase the faith of the believers, and to be a scientific punishment for hypocrites and disbelievers. However, the implication of this number as a proof for the authenticity of the Quran remained unknown for centuries. For fourteen centuries, the commentators tried in vain to understand the function and fulfillment of the number 19.

Before The Secret Was Decoded

Before the discovery of the 19-based system, we were aware of a symmetrical mathematical wonder in the Quran. For example:

The word "month" (shahr) occurs 12 times.
The word "day" (yawm) occurs 365 times.
The word "days" (eyyam, yawmeyn) occurs 30 times.
The words "satan" (shaytan) & "angel" (malak), each occur 88 times.
The words "this world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (ahirah), each occur 115 times.
Simple To Understand, Impossible To Imitate

The mathematical structure of the Quran, or The Final Testament, is simple to understand, yet impossible to imitate. You do not need to know Arabic, the original language of the Quran to examine it for yourself. Basically, what you need is to be able to count until 19. It is a challenge for atheists, an invitation for agnostics and a guidance for believers. It is a perpetual miracle for the computer generation. Dr. Rashad Khalifa introduces this supernatural message as follows:

The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book. Every element of the Quran is mathematically composed-the chapters, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, the unique spelling of certain words, and many other elements of the Quran besides its content. There are two major facets of the Quran's mathematical system: (1) The mathematical literary composition, and (2) The mathematical structure involving the numbers of chapters and verses. Because of this comprehensive mathematical coding, the slightest distortion of the Quran's text or physical arrangement is immediately exposed (Rashad Khalifa, Quran The Final Testament, 1989, p. 609).

Physical, Examinable Evidence

Here is the summary of this historical message:


The first verse, i.e., the opening statement "Bismillahirrahmanirrahim", shortly "Basmalah," consists of 19 Arabic letters.
The first word of Basmalah, Ism (name), without contraction, occurs in the Quran 19 times.
The second word of Basmalah, Allah (God) occurs 2698 times, or 19x142.
The third word of Basmalah, Rahman (Gracious) occurs 57 times, or 19x3.
The fourth word of Basmalah, Rahim (Merciful) occurs 114 times, or 19x6.
Although this phenomenon (the opening statement consists of 19 letters, and each word occurs in multiple of 19) represents a minute portion of the code, it was described by Martin Gardner in the Scientific American as "ingenious" (September, 1981, p. 22-24)
The multiplication factors of the words of the Basmalah (1+142+3+6) add up to 152 or 19x8.
The Quran consists of 114 chapters, which is 19x6.
The total number of verses in the Quran including all unnumbered Basmalahs is 6346, or 19x334. If you add the digits of that number, 6+3+4+6 equals 19.
The Basmalah occurs 114 times, (despite its conspicuous absence from chapter 9, it occurs twice in chapter 27) and 114 is 19x6.
From the missing Basmalah of chapter 9 to the extra Basmalah of chapter 27, there are precisely 19 chapters.
The occurrence of the extra Basmalah is in 27:30. The number of the chapter and the verse add up to 57, or 19x3.
Each letter of the Arabic alphabet corresponds to a number according to their original sequence in the alphabet. The Arabs were using this system for calculations. When the Quran was revealed 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. A universal system was used where the letters of the Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek alphabets were used as numerals. The number assigned to each letter is its "Gematrical Value." The numerical values of the Arabic alphabet are shown below: [the table is omitted]
A study on the gematrical values of about 120 attributes of God which are mentioned in the Quran, shows that only four attributes have gematrical values which are multiples of 19. These are "Wahid" (One), "Zul Fadl al Azim" (Possessor of Infinite Grace), "Majid" (Glorous), "Jaami" (Summoner). Their gematrical value are 19 , 2698, 57, and 114 respectively, which are all divisible by 19 and correspond exactly to the frequencies of occurrence of the Basmalah's four words.
The total numbers of verses where the word "Allah" (God) occurs, add up to 118123, and is 19x6217.
The total occurrences of the word Allah (God) in all the verses whose numbers are multiples of 19 is 133, or 19x7.
The key commandment: "You shall devote your worship to God alone" (in Arabic "Wahdahu") occurs in 7:70; 39:45; 40:12,84; and 60:4. The total of these numbers adds up to 361, or 19x19.
The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon that is not found in any other book: 29 chapters are prefixed with "Quranic Initials" which remained mysterious for 1406 years. With the discovery of the code 19, we realized their major role in the Quran's mathematical structure. The initials occur in their respective chapters in multiples of 19. For example, Chapter 19 has five letters in its beginning, K.H.Y.A'.SS., and the total occurrence of these letters in this chapter is 798, or 19x42.
To witness the details of the miracle of these initials, a short chapter which begins with one initial, letter "Q", will be a good example. The frequency of "Q" in chapter 50 is 57, or 19x3. The letter "Q" occurs in the other Q-initialed chapter, i.e., chapter 42, exactly the same number of times, 57. The total occurrence of the letter "Q" in the two Q-initialed chapters is 114, which equals the number of chapters in the Quran. The description of the Quran as "Majid" (Glorious) is correlated with the frequency of occurrence of the letter "Q" in each of the Q-initialed chapters. The word "Majid" has a gematrical value of 57. Chapter 42 consists of 53 verses, and 42+53 is 95, or 19x5. Chapter 50 consists of 45 verses, and 50+45 is 95, or 19x5.
The Quran mentions 30 different cardinal numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.
In addition to 30 cardinal numbers, the Quran contains 8 fractions: 1/10, 1/8, 1/6, 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3. Thus, the Quran contains 38 (19x2) different numbers. The total of fractions is approximately 2.
If we write down the number of each verse in the Quran, one next to the other, preceded by the number of verses in each chapter, the resulting long number consists of 12692 digits (19x668). Additionally, the huge number itself is also a multiple of 19.


Similar Phenomenon In Older Documents

It is significant that the same 19-based mathematical composition was discovered by Rabbi Judah in the 12th century AD in a preserved part of the Old Testament. Below is a quote from Studies In Jewish Mysticism.

"The people (Jews) in France made it a custom to add (in the morning prayer) the words: " 'Ashrei temimei derekh (blessed are those who walk the righteous way)," and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned (in that portion of the morning prayer), . . . and similarly you find the word Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-'elleh shemot . . . .

"Similarly, you find that Israel were called "sons" nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight volumes. Therefore, anyone who has the fear of God in him will not listen to the words of the Frenchmen who add the verse " 'Ashrei temimei derekh (blessed are those who walk in the paths of God's Torah, for according to their additions the Holy Name is mentioned twenty times . . . and this is a great mistake. Furthermore, in this section there are 152 words, but if you add " 'Ashrei temimei derekh" there are 158 words. This is nonsense, for it is a great and hidden secret why there should be 152 words . . ." (Studies In Jewish Mysticism, Joseph Dan, Association for Jewish Studies. Cambridge, Massachusetts: 1978, p 88.)

How Can We Explain This Phenomenon?

There are basically four possible explanations:

1) Manipulation: One may be skeptical about our data regarding the mathematical structure of the Quran. However, one can eliminate this option by spending several hours of checking the data at random. Several books on the subject have been published and can be obtained from ICS, P.O. Box 43476, Tucson, AZ 85733-3476. Muslim scholars and clerics who have traded the Quran with primitive mediaeval fabrications, that is, Hadith and Sunna, strongly reject this mathematical system, since the mathematical system exposes the corruption of religions by clergymen. Today's Islam (Submission) has virtually nothing to do with original teaching of Muhammad, that is, the Quran.

2) Coincidence: This possibility is eliminated by the statistical probability laws. The consistency and frequency of the 19-based pattern is much too overwhelming to occur coincidentally.

3) Human fabrication: While fabricating a literary work that meets the criteria of the document summarized here is a stunning challenge for our computer generation, it is certainly even more improbable during the time of initiation of the document, namely, 610 AD. One more fact augments the improbability of human fabrication. If a certain person or persons had fabricated this literary work, they would want to reap the fruits of their efforts; they would have shown it to people to prove their cause. In view of the originality, complexity, and mathematical sophistication of this work, one has to admit that it is ingenious. However, no one has ever claimed credit for this unique literary code; the code was never known prior to the computer decoding accomplished by Dr. Khalifa. Therefore, it is reasonable to exclude the possibility of human fabrication.

The timing of the discovery may be considered another evidence for the existence and full control of the Supreme Being: The mystery of the number 19 which is mentioned as "one of the greatest events" in the chapter 74 (The Hidden Secret) was discovered by Dr. Khalifa in1974, exactly 1406 (19x74) lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. The connection between 19 (the code) and 74 (the number of the chapter which this code is mentioned) is significant in the timing of the discovery.

4. Super Intelligent Source: The only remaining possibility is that a super intelligent source is responsible for this document; one who designed the work in this extraordinary manner, then managed to keep it a well guarded secret for 14 centuries, for a predetermined time. The mathematical code ensures that the source is super intelligent and also that the document is perfectly intact.

PS: The discoverer of the Code 19, Dr. Rashad Khalifa, was assassinated in Tucson, Arizona, by an international terrorist group affiliated to Usama Ben Laden, in 1990. However, the power of this message is promising a new era of reformation in religions, particularly Islam and Christianity. Ironically, some of Khalifa's "followers" have created a cult, Submitters, after the departure of this brave idol-breaker.
For an extensive argument on Code 19, see Edip Yuksel's debate with two critics of the code 19. Running Like Zebras and Another Running Like Zebras, available at yuksel.org and 19.org
To read Edip Yuksel's two-round argument with Carl Sagan, see The Prime Argument.
Edip Yuksel's comprehensive demonstration of the mathematical structure of the Quran, together with answers to major criticisms, God wiling, will be published under the title CODE 19: God's Signature in the Nature and Scripture. The author is currently searching for an American publishing company.
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Salam brother Edip

Thanks for your article

Brother Quraishi will go through it and turn it into points to be replied to Inshallah

I'm sorry that I didn't add you to the Auto approved members when you joined, I totally forgot my sister mahita in egypt was not done uintil a moment ago, too many things to do mate

all registered members coments should be auto approved but I yet have to add them once and this can only happen after they join, I implemented this system to allow the guests to post but will only be visible after approving it, this should not apply to you any more

Brother Quraishi will take care of the duplicates

Welcome again to FI

Salam

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Salam, yes, I told brother Ahmed to keep his reply until after I made some pointers:

Note: I have removed Edip's marquee edit as the post was harder to read - in the future please avoid marquee text so that everyone may read the post easily.

Note: Due to the length and single body of the first half of the of the post, I have provided points of Edip's argument so that Ahmed can refute and Edip can bring up counter arguments.

Note: The participants must stick to the first point until it has been settled or until it has come to a standstill at which time I will ask them to move onto the next point.

Note: Participants are urged to keep an open mind for the benefit of themselves and everyone else who will read this thread, so maybe, just maybe we will come to a concensus/agreement on the Code 19 issue.

Note: Anything stated in ' ' is a direct quote which can be found using Ctrl+F and pasting the phrase (minus the ' ')

* The first, introductory paragraph deals with the discovery of code 19 and a statement that chapter 74, which Edip has translated as 'The Hidden One' being revealing.

* The second paragraph states a fulfillment in verse 17:88, and also that code 19 exists in the bible, also it has been stated that a 'Quranic Prophecy' has been fulfilled in verses 74:30-31

* The next few lines talk about a miracle to appear after it's revelation with references to verses

* 'The miracle promised throughout the Quran might have been destined to appear after Muhammad's death:' citing verses for this statement and providing Chapter 74 and the Numerical emphasis of the number 19

* The paragraph beginning with 31. Commenting on traditionalist beliefs vs. beliefs in 19

* The purpose of oath? statements in the Quran is not similar to their common usage.

* A reference to '54:1-5'

* Another look at Chapter 75 '(The Hidden)'

* 'Running Like Zebras '

* The rest of Edip's post is sectioned under Emboldened titles

Please start with the first point * The first, introductory paragraph deals with the discovery of code 19 and a statement that chapter 74, which Edip has translated as 'The Hidden One' being revealing. All subsequent arguments Edip uses on Chapter 74 in his first post may also be cited in this.
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Salam Edip, Al-Quraishi and All

Let me take the chance and thank brother Edip again for his contribution to this debate.

I will try to respond in parts to make it easier to follow, at the end of the debate I would like to summarize all my arguments in points inshaallah

www19org wrote:
Code 19
(Summary from upcoming book On it 19, Edip Yuksel)


www19org wrote:
The miraculous function of the number 19 prophesized in Chapter 74 was unveiled in 1974 through a computerized analysis of the Quran.


While at a glance it may look impressing, we can 't ignore the fact that R K announced it in January 1974 (as far as I remember, please correct me if I 'm wrong), i.e. he might have planned it to suit his theory, indeed he was researching it for months and months before that, then he was in charge in setting the day he takes it to the public, it looks to me that he waited till January 1974 then he announced it, this looks very suspicious because the day it was announced is not like it was chosen by Allah rather it was chosen by R K himself

www19org wrote:
Though, in retrospect, the implication of 19 in Chapter 74 traditionally called Hidden One, were obvious,


While I agree that Al Muddathir means the hidden, I still don 't get it from you brother Edip, is Al Maddathir referring to code 19 or Rashad Khalifah?

www19org wrote:
it remained a secret for 1406 (19x74) lunar years after the revelation of the Quran.


Again, I stress that Rashad Khalifah was in charge of selecting the date he takes it to the public, if he removed two verses from the Quran to suit his needs, why not he waited till January 1974 for his public announcement of code 19 so it suits his needs?, there is nothing that can refute this possibility

www19org wrote:
Ironically, the first words of the Chapter 74, The Hidden One, was revealing,


First of all, the first words in sura 74 are not The Hidden one , the first words are يَا أَيُّهَا الْمُدَّثِّرُ , Ya Ayuha Al Muddathir , i.e. O Al Madathir , i.e. A call to Al Maddthir , and if we translate Al Maddathir to be The Hidden then it should be O the hidden , a proper translation should look like this : O thou enveloped in thy cloak , i.e. it is a call to a human not to an object if we consider code 19 an object which of course is not, nor it is a human, therefore O Al Madathir must mean a call to a human, this human must be either Mohammad or R K, do you agree brother Edip?

www19org wrote:
yet the code was a divinely guarded gift allocated to the computer generation;


Actually brother Edip, you don 't need a computer to count letters in words, I see your statement as an exadoration because the computer didn 't discover anything, it was only used to count letters, while on the other hand it can be accurately counted using a human, it will just take longer, that 's all.

www19org wrote:
they were the one who would need and appreciate it the most.


This is strange because I 'm a computer expert, I 'm also a programmer, and to be honest I can 't appreciate this alleged code because the evidences provided by R K does not make sense as we will see later on inshaallah

www19org wrote:
As we have demonstrated in various books, hundreds of simple and complex algorithms, we witness the depth and breath of mathematical manipulation of Arabic, an arbitrary human language, to be profound and extraordinary.


The depth in the Arabic language is in its words, sentences, blaghah, i.e. its linguistics, it has nothing to do with numbers really. I can 't see any relation other than this funny concept call ABGAD HAWAS, this ABGAD HAWAS thingy is only used in songs for children in Egypt.

www19org wrote:
This is the fulfillment of a Quranic challenge (17:88).


Let 's look at 17:88

Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.

[The Quran ; 17-88]

قُل لَّئِنِ اجْتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَى أَن يَأْتُواْ بِمِثْلِ هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لاَ يَأْتُونَ بِمِثْلِهِ وَلَوْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ ظَهِيرًا (88)

-> I can 't see any relation between the alleged code 19 and the fulfilment of the Quran challenge in 17:88 for the following reasons:

1) What you say means that the Ins and Jinn thought that they made a similar Quran in all these years before R K announced to the public his code, however we know that even in those years no Ins nor Jinn made a similar book like the Quran

2) There is no future fulfilment to any challenge, it is rather you meet the challenge or not, i.e. any challenge is already fulfilled as a challenge the moment it was announced and in the case of the Quran challenge this challenge was fulfilled the day 17:88 was revealed, this means you statement above is logically wrong, the challenge can be proven a lie if being met

3) It is not like we need to analyse an alleged Quran like book using code 19 to prove if it is alike or not because in all those years before code 19 was announced they didn 't have this tool to analyse the alleged Quran like books and yet we know that the challenge was never met in all those years.

4) Code 19 was never used to analyse another book to see if it is a Quran like or not as far as I believe, you can correct me if I 'm wrong

5) In fact code 19 was only used to sort of qualify the Quran and not any other book, this was done to remove two verses from the Quran which is a clear violation to the fact mentioned in the same book that Allah is in charge of guarding it from corruption.

6) There are many who managed to create some writings that can have code 19 and even many other codes, some also claimed to have discovered other codes in the Quran in addition to code 19


www19org wrote:
While the meaning of the Quranic text and its literal excellence was kept,


This is a contradiction because R K claimed that it was not well kept denying the fact mentioned in the Quran that Allah is guarding it, he claimed that two verses were inserted in it, this contradicts the statement that its Quranic text was kept.

www19org wrote:
all its units, from chapters, verses, words to its letters were also assigned universally recognizable roles in creation of mathematical patterns.


I have not seen it to be honest, you also have no evidence to support the above statement, for example what you mean by recognizable roles that were assigned to the Quran verses and words? You only say that to server the alleged code 19 that is why you added in creation of mathematical patterns , but again brother, Allah never told us that He created such pattern, it is sort of you want me to believe that while Allah never said it, on the other hand I 'm happy to believe it if your evidences are strong and do not contradict the Quran, but in all those years of study I only see it contradicting the Quran and the common sense as we will see when we go further in the debate inshaallah.


www19org wrote:
Since its discovery, the number 19 of the Quran and the Bible has increased the faith of many believers, has removed doubts in the minds of many People of the Book, and has caused discord, controversy and chaos among those who have traded the Quran with men-made sectarian teachings. This is indeed a fulfillment of a Quranic prophecy (74:30-31).


well, I will leave this till I reply to the whole sura later on inshaallah

www19org wrote:
Various verses of the Quran mention an important miracle that will appear after its revelation.


In fact the Quran told us clearly that Allah has stopped sending clear miracles, here it is :

And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

[The Quran ; 17-59]

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَن نُّرْسِلَ بِالآيَاتِ إِلاَّ أَن كَذَّبَ بِهَا الأَوَّلُونَ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُواْ بِهَا وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالآيَاتِ إِلاَّ تَخْوِيفًا (59)

-> See brother Edip, the Arabic words are clear: وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَن نُّرْسِلَ بِالآيَاتِ , which means And We refrain from sending the signs, , the reason Allah refrained Himself from sending more signs is explained: only because the men of former generations treated them as false , then He gave us an example of those early generations who disbelieved the CLEAR signs sent to them We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully , can you see the word مُبْصِرَةً , Mubsirah , which means the sign was CLEAR FOR THEM, not a hidden code, you told us the code is hidden, while the signs that Allah sends are CLEAR for the people, we can also see why Allah sends those clear signs: وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالآيَاتِ إِلاَّ تَخْوِيفًا , We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil). , I don 't believe that the alleged sign of code 19 belongs to that.

Therefore from the time of the revelation of the above verse no more clear signs will be sent as a way of terror to warn of evil, this is what Allah said above

www19org wrote:
They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you." (10:20)


First of all this verse exposes R K big times, see, a person comes and say that He is a messenger, the people then ask for a miracle then Allah will send the Miracle if He wishes, on the other hand R K did it the other way around, he claimed the miracle then on that he claimed to be a messenger, do you get it bro, well let 's see if the verse above clear it out:

And they say: Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say: The unseen is only for Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.

[The Quran ; 10-20]

وَيَقُولُونَ لَوْلاَ أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ فَقُلْ إِنَّمَا الْغَيْبُ لِلّهِ فَانْتَظِرُواْ إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ (20)

-> See what the people said about Mohammad : And they say: Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? , obviously the said that because Mohammad claimed to be a messenger of God, they will never say that if Mohammad didn 't claim to be a messenger of God, do you agree brother Edip?, on the other hand R K claimed the miracle first, then he claimed to be a messenger of God, can you see the huge difference brother?

-> There is also another note that should not be ignored, the sign mentioned above is explicitly to Mohammad not to R K, we can read the clear Arabic words in their question أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ , Onzila Alaihi Aya , i.e. a sign sent to him , him ' in the words refer to Mohammad of course.

-> The verse also never claimed that the sign will be sent down, it only ended with فَانْتَظِرُواْ إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ , i.e. therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait. , this means for me that the sign that will be sent is their destruction because of their arrogance, indeed the same exact words used by many prophets and meant destruction sent upon them, this indeed is a future sign from Allah but it is going to be late for many of course.

www19org wrote:
This is a reminder for the world. And you will certainly find out in awhile. (38:87-88)


Well, the verses below does not indicate that we will know code 19 in the future, in fact the verse below confirms what I said regarding the last verse we discussed above, let 's have a look

87: This is a reminder for the worlds.
88: And you will certainly find out in awhile.

[The Quran ; 38:87-88]

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا ذِكْرٌ لِّلْعَالَمِينَ (87)
وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ نَبَأَهُ بَعْدَ حِينٍ (88)

-> The verses are talking about the Quran that it is a reminder for the world, then it ended up in 38:88 by saying: وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ نَبَأَهُ بَعْدَ حِينٍ , And you will certainly find out in awhile , what we will find is what it reminded us with stated in the previous verse 38:87, This is a reminder for the worlds , i.e. what we will know in the future (on the JD) that what it reminded us with is going to be 100% true, the word نَبَأَهُ Nabaahu has nothing to do with any Miracles or Signs, rather the Quran Reminders , What the Quran told us is going to be true on the JD

www19org wrote:
We will show them our signs/miracles in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things? (41:53)


It seems to me that R K was trying hard to find verses to link it to the alleged code as evidences to the suppose to be CLEAR miracle, again the following verse has nothing to do with the alleged code 19:

We will show them our signs/miracles in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things?

[The Quran ; 41-53]

سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (53)

-> The verse is talking about signs that was already sent, however the signs must be something else but the Quran and the alleged code 19, because of the following reasons:

1) Code 19 is only one sign (assumption) while the verse is talking about SIGNS (plural)

2) The verse is talking about signs found in the horizons and ourselves, it never stated clearly that signs will be found in the Quran, while I agree that the Horizon may be used to indicate a futuristic time line, my argument that it was never explicit that those signs will be found in the Quran, I say the signs mentioned are any discovered scientific fact that is mentioned in the Quran including what we discover about ourselves, this is clear from the words: وَفِي أَنفُسِهِمْ , Wa Fi Anfusihim , i.e. and within themselves , in fact this is the only explicit signs mentioned in this verse, the sign in the horizons can be speculated (in regards to the intended meaning of the Horizon as well the sign itself), however the signs in ourselves can 't be argued and that is why it was the only explicit signs mentioned in the verse

3) When there is a sign, then we have a FACT, however code 19 is still messed up regarding the letter Alif, which is mentioned numerous time in the beginning of those lettered suras , i.e. a major element of the code is not a fact yet, this is what the 19ers claim.

4) You can not use the Quran to prove a sign in it, this is a fallacy, what you can do is watch another sign and see if the Quran is talking about it or not, if the Quran is talking about it then we have another sign in addition to the main external sign, that is why in the same verse we read : حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ , until they realize that this is the truth , i.e. Allah will show us existing signs until many humans realize that the Quran is the truth., those signs must be something else but the Quran however the Quran must be talking about it and when we see that then we realize that the Quran is the truth from God, on the other hand assuming that code 19 is a sign, then it is one sign and not SIGNS as 41:53 told us

5) we can also see that showing those signs will be continually happens over time this is clear from the Arabic word حَتَّى , Hatta , i.e. Until , and this can not happen with ONE SIGN, that is why the verse is telling us about SIGNS

www19org wrote:
The beginning of Chapter 25 refers to the arguments of the opponents who denied the divine nature of the Quran:


www19org wrote:
Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood. They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night." (25:4-5)


Fine but that does not apply to the believers who don 't deny the divine nature of the Quran and at the same time reject code 19, for them, they believed without the need of such code, however if you are using the following verses to indicate similarities between those who reject the code and what they say about R K as it was said to Mohammad in the verse then the example is flawed, let 's have a look:

4- Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood.
5- They also said, Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night.

[The Quran ; 10-20]

وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا إِفْكٌ افْتَرَاهُ وَأَعَانَهُ عَلَيْهِ قَوْمٌ آخَرُونَ فَقَدْ جَاؤُوا ظُلْمًا وَزُورًا (4)
وَقَالُوا أَسَاطِيرُ الْأَوَّلِينَ اكْتَتَبَهَا فَهِيَ تُمْلَى عَلَيْهِ بُكْرَةً وَأَصِيلًا (5)

-> Firstly the verses are talking about the Kafiroon who reject the Quran, I 'm not one of them nor any Muslim for that matter, those Muslims believe in the one God, the angels, the prophets and messengers, the JD and all the revealed scriptures, so the verses above can be talking about the Muslims

-> What is said by the kafiroon (and they were clearly called kafiroon), that the Quran is a fabrication, now we Muslims don't say as such, we only say that code 19 is a fabrication, we do believe in the divine Quran word for word.

-> The kafiroon also say that the Quran is: ? Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night. ? , again we Muslims don 't say that

The above accusation by the kafiroon are only directed at the Quran as a whole and not code 19 in it, that is why I have to totally dismiss the above argument

This will bring me to the end of my first comment, Brother Edip is welcome to take the stand and respond to the above only, please be aware that I still have a lot to reply to so if any refutes to the above argument are still to be read by me then please be patient until I reach it instead of repeating it while we discuss the above

Thanks Edip, Zayd and all

Salam

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Salam Edip, Al-Quraishi and All

Let me reply to the next small paragraph and part of the following one before I reply to sura 74 which is included in the next paragraph by brother Edip, I just want to dedicate a full comment to sura 74

www19org wrote:
The awaited miracle, the hidden mathematical structure


From the title of this paragraph, it seems that brother Edip understands that the word Al Muddathir The Hidden ? means the alleged miracle of code 19, (Please correct me if I'm wrong), if that is the case then we have seen that the first verse in sura 74 is Ya Ayuha Al Maddathir ?, i.e. a call to a human, it can't mean a call to the miracle of code 19, the subsequent verses will 100% prove that it has to be a call for a human.

www19org wrote:
The subsequent verse gives an enigmatic answer to the assertion of those who claimed that the Quran is manmade.


But as I stated earlier that the Muslims don't believe that the Quran is man made, in fact R K was the one who believed that the Quran is man made by having two extra verses inserted by humans, the true Muslims never claim that the Quran is man made, unless you want to tell me that code 19 is only directed at the kafiroon, would that be true?

www19org wrote:
Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the SECRET in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Merciful." (25:6)



Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the SECRET in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Merciful.

[The Quran ; 25:6]

قُلْ أَنزَلَهُ الَّذِي يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ إِنَّهُ كَانَ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا (6)



www19org wrote:
How can knowing the secret ? constitute an answer for those who assert that the Quran is Muhammad's work?


Sorry brother Edip, the above argument has nothing to do with code 19, I really can't see how it can't be stretched to be linked to code 19?, again the Muslims don't doubt that the Quran is revealed from Allah, nor the verse above mentioned any code to be discovered in the Quran

www19org wrote:
Will the proof or evidence of the divine authorship of the Quran remain a secret known by God alone?


Ok, I got what you mean now, so you mean the word SECRET mentioned in 25:6 means the hidden code in the Quran,, bro the verse does not say that, the verse say the secret in the heavens and earth, how come code 19 be a secret in the heaven and earth?, on the other hand, assuming it is about the hidden code, then the verse above never said that it will be revealed.

www19org wrote:
Or, will the antagonists be rebuffed by that divine mystery? If there should be a relationship between the objection and answer, then we can infer from the above verse that a SECRET will demonstrate the divine nature of the Quran.


I stress that 25:6 never talked about any secret to be revealed that will demonstrate the divine nature of the Quran, I request the interference of Judge Quraishi regarding this issue please.

www19org wrote:
The miracle promised throughout the Quran might have been destined to appear after Muhammad's death:


www19org wrote:
We have sent messengers before you, and we made them husbands with wives and children. No messenger can produce a miracle without God's authorization, and in accordance with a specific, predetermined time. God erases and fixes whatever He wills. With Him is the original Master Record. Whether we show you some of what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is on us the reckoning. (13:38-40)


First of all, the above translation is flawed, let's have a look at the translation by Shakir:

38: And certainly We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and children, and it is not in (the power of) an messenger to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment.

39: Allah makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him is the basis of the Book.

40: And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

[The Quran ; 13:38-40]

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلاً مِّن قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَن يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ (38)
يَمْحُو اللّهُ مَا يَشَاء وَيُثْبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ (39)
وَإِن مَّا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلاَغُ وَعَلَيْنَا الْحِسَابُ (40)

-> I guess brother Edip is using R K translation, (please correct me if I'm wrong)., the first part of verse 13:38 was translated ok by R K ? We have sent messengers before you, and we made them husbands with wives and children. ? compared to how Shakir translated it ? And certainly We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and children, ?, of course Shakir translation is more accurate to this part because R K translated the words ?وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ ?, ?Wa Jaalna Lahum ? as ?and we made them ? while it should be ?and we made FOR them ? similar to what how Shakir translated it ? and gave them ?, we made them husbands and wives and children just does not make any sense if you ask me, does it make any sense to you brother Edip?

-> The second part of 13:38 was translated fine by R K, ? No messenger can produce a miracle without God's authorization ? similar to Shakir ? and it is not in (the power of) an messenger to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; ?, the only difference though that Shakir added a semi colon after the sentence this is because what comes next is new sentence and has nothing to do with sentence, R K however ignored that and made the two sentences as one again to support his alleged code discovery, here is how the new sentence starts by Shakir ? for every term there is an appointment. ?, this is even a very popular sayings that most Arab Muslims say every day Le Kul Ajalun Kitab ?, now let's see how R K made the two sentence one,

? No messenger can produce a miracle without God's authorization, and in accordance with a specific, predetermined time. ?

This is how Shakir translated it:

?and it is not in (the power of) an messenger to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment. ?

Indeed the word AND does not exist in the Arabic text as R K put it, this of course one of the hundreds of reasons that made me doubt his theory of the hidden code


www19org wrote:
The last phrase of verse 13:40 quoted above is interesting, The meaning of this phrase becomes clearer after the discovery of Code 19, since the Arabic word HeSaaB ? refers to both the day of judgment ? and numerical computation. ?


This is the most illogical argument I read about code 19, I request to be dismissed, while I agree that the word Hessab can mean calculation, in the context of verse 13:40, it can only mean the judgment, it is really funny to think that Allah is saying to Mohammad the following :

? Whether we show you some of what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is on us the numeric computation. ?

On the other hand the translation provided by brother Edip is as follow:

Whether we show you some of what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is on us the reckoning.

Looks like brother Edip refuted himself.

www19org wrote:
The deliberate use of multi-meaning words is very common in the Quran. For instance, the word AaYAh ? occurs 84 times in the Quran and in all occurrences it means miracle, ? sign ? or law. ? However, its plural form AaYAat ? also means revelation ? or verses of the Quran. ? This unique usage equates minimum three verses of the Quran (in Arabic, a different form is used for duality) with miracle. It also pulls our attention to the parallelism between God's signs/laws in the universe and God's revelation in human language: they share the same source and the same truth. In the following verse the plural word AaYAat ? is used not to mean revelation ? but miracle, sign or physical manifestation ?:


I request the above argument to be dismissed, it is illogical, confusing and has absolutely no merit. The word Hissab used in 13:40 ONLY means Reckoning ? as he provided in his translation and according to the context and the common sense, let me explain this simple point, the word ? بَعْضَ ?, ?Baad ? which means some ?, can't really mean code 19, because code 19 is not some but single miracle, see how simple it can be. That is why the argument is illogical.

www19org wrote:
Are they waiting for the angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some physical manifestations of your Lord? The day this happens, no person will benefit from believing if it did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, "Keep on waiting; we too are waiting." (6:158)


Letn me bring Shakir translation along with the Arabic verse:

They do not wait aught but that the angels should come to them, or that your Lord should come, or that some of the signs of your Lord should come. On the day when some of the signs of your Lord shall come, its faith shall not profit a soul which did not believe before, or earn good through its faith. Say: Wait; we too are waiting.

[The Quran ; 6:158]

هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ أَن تَأْتِيهُمُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ أَوْ يَأْتِيَ رَبُّكَ أَوْ يَأْتِيَ بَعْضُ آيَاتِ رَبِّكَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِي بَعْضُ آيَاتِ رَبِّكَ لاَ يَنفَعُ نَفْسًا إِيمَانُهَا لَمْ تَكُنْ آمَنَتْ مِن قَبْلُ أَوْ كَسَبَتْ فِي إِيمَانِهَا خَيْرًا قُلِ انتَظِرُواْ إِنَّا مُنتَظِرُونَ (158)

-> Well, again the above verse can not be related to the alleged code 19 in any way, in fact if it does then we must have a huge problem in hand, the verse above started by talking about the moment of death, ? They do not wait aught but that the angels should come to them, or that your Lord should come, ?, then the verse has added another thing that the people may be waiting for, ? or that some of the signs of your Lord should come. ? , this can't mean the sign of the alleged code 19 for the following couple of reasons:

1) The verse is telling us about some SIGNS, not one sign
2) The verse is telling us that when those signs shall come then ? On the day when some of the signs of your Lord shall come, , its faith shall not profit a soul which did not believe before, ?, i.e. on a day on January 1974 when R K revealed the sign of the alleged code 19 then anyone who was not a believer before that will be thrown in hell, this is because the belief after the revelation of the sign won't be accepted, this is what the verse said, am I wrong?

A final note in here, the verse of course is talking about the signs of the J D, and when some of those signs shall come then no new belief will be accepted, and they will be punished even if they claim belief, that is why the verse ended with : ? انتَظِرُواْ إِنَّا مُنتَظِرُونَ ?, i.e. ? Wait; we too are waiting. ?, i.e. waiting for the punishment, remember what I said in my first comment regarding 10:20, here it is, just in case :


And they say: Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say: The unseen is only for Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.

[The Quran ; 10-20]

وَيَقُولُونَ لَوْلاَ أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ فَقُلْ إِنَّمَا الْغَيْبُ لِلّهِ فَانْتَظِرُواْ إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ (20)

-> The verse also never claimed that the sign will be sent down, it only ended with ?فَانْتَظِرُواْ إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ , i.e. ? therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait. ?, this means for me that the sign that will be sent is their destruction because of their arrogance, indeed the same exact words used by many prophets and meant destruction sent upon them, this indeed is a future sign from Allah but it is going to be late for many of course.


Thank you all

Salam for now

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Salam Edip, Quraishi and all,

I would like to add a small comment as a proposal to how this debate continues on, I would have prefered that we finalise all these issues before we start, however we all brothers and inshaallah we won't argue on how the debate should continue on

here is my proposal but I'm open for any other ideas from brothers (Edip and Quraishi) if they wish:

1) Beother Edip presnets his full argument (which I believe he did in his first comment)
2) I will start replying to his full argument which I did, however as we have seen above that brother Edip may need to refute whatever I stated so far and before I finish my full reply to his full argument, this is totally fine with me, I propose the way it should continue from that point on as follow:

3) After brother Edip adds his extra comments within my main reply, I dont have to reply back, so we dont end in a circle, rather it will work as follow:

4) either I continue to main reply to Edip's main argument, or just pick a couple of points (the max) from his second(s) replys to my main argumemt as I progresss in it, after that brother Edip won't be able to reply back to my couple of points. then I move on to the main argument

5) At the end of my main argument Edip can have his final clossing statement then I will have mine, in the final closing statements Brother Edip and myself won't be able to reply to each others, rather tackling the subject itself which is code 19 (why it is either true or false)


I believe the above should be fair to all parties including the audience

Please let me know what you say

Thanks

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You could both just stick strictly to the Mudathir argument, it's an important issue and there's certainly more stuff to clear up on this issue such as Edip's claims that it can have three meanings.
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Salam Edip, Quraishi and All,

Thanks Bro Edip for your reply, I decided to reply to all your new arguments at the end of my comment inshaallah, I understand that bro Quraishi wants us to concentrate on the Muddathir word meaning, however I believe my next comment may cover that part, however brother Quraishi can ask for an elaboration to any specific point in my comment.

www19org wrote:
The verse 30 of Chapter 74, Al-Muddassir (The Hidden/The Secret) of the Quran reads exactly, Over it Nineteen. ?


That is right, now the Muddathir under Edip understanding must mean The Hidden Sign ?, as well the word IT in Over it Ninteen ? must be referring to the Quran ?, i.e. Over the Quran is 19, the word IT is represented in the Arabic text by the DAMIR HA in the word AlaiHA, this DAMIR is feminine, i.e. it can't be the Quran because the Quran is masculine, i.e. if it is the Quran then it has to be HU, i.e. AlaiHU.

According to brother Edip understanding, the word IT then must be referring to the feminine Arabic word SIGN, in that case the words Over it Ninteen must be as follow: ?Over the SIGN is Ninteen ?, this does not make full sense, does it mean that the Sign is based on the number 19?, I guess so but I would like brother Edip to confirm please.

www19org wrote:
The entire chapter is about the number 19. Let's read the chapter from the beginning.


This is an over statement,, the number 19 was only mentioned once, so to claim that the entire chapter is about the number 19 is nothing but wishful thinking really, let me start the sura from the beginning and see if the entire chapter is about the number 19:

www19org wrote:
In the Name of God, Gracious, Merciful
1. O you the hidden one!
2. Come out and warn.
3. Extol your Lord.
4. Purify your garment.
5. Forsake what is wrong.
6. Be content with your lot.
7. Be steadfast for your Lord.
8. When the declaration is made.
9. That will be a difficult day.
10. For the disbelievers, not easy.
11. Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
12. I provided him with lots of wealth.
13. And children to behold.
14. I made everything easy for him.
15. Yet, he is greedy for more.
16. He stubbornly rejected our revelations/miracles.
17. I will commit him to an uphill task.
18. For he reflected, then decided.
19. Miserable is what he decided.
20. Miserable indeed is what he decided.
21. He looked.
22. He frowned and whined.
23. Then he turned away arrogantly.
24. He said, "This is but impressive/old magic!
25. "This is nothing but word of human."
26. I will commit him to Saqar.
27. Do you know what Saqar is?
28. It is not more, not less (precise).
29. Succeeding manifestations/obvious for people (universal).
30. Over it is nineteen.


Let me start with the first 7 verses in sura 74:

1: O thou enveloped in thy cloak

2: Arise and deliver thy warning!

3: And thy Lord do thou magnify!

4: And your garments do purify,

5: And uncleanness do shun,

6: And show not favour, seeking worldly gain!

7: But, for thy Lord's (Cause), be patient!

[The Quran ; 74:1-7]

بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
يَا أَيُّهَا الْمُدَّثِّرُ (1)
قُمْ فَأَنذِرْ (2)
وَرَبَّكَ فَكَبِّرْ (3)
وَثِيَابَكَ فَطَهِّرْ (4)
وَالرُّجْزَ فَاهْجُرْ (5)
وَلَا تَمْنُن تَسْتَكْثِرُ (6)
وَلِرَبِّكَ فَاصْبِرْ (7)

-> If we read above we can clearly notice the followings:

a) Allah is talking to something called The Hidden, 74:1
b) Allah is ordering that thing called The Hidden to arise and deliver thy warning!, 74:2
c) Allah is ordering that thing called The Hidden to magnify thy Lord, 74:3
d) That thing called The Hidden has cloths, and an order was given to keep that cloths clean, 74:4
e) That thing called The Hidden was ordered to shun the uncleanness, 74:5
f) That thing called The Hidden was ordered to show not favour to people in power, seeking worldly gain, 74:6
g) That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to be patient for thy Lord's (Cause), 74:7

Therefore ?The Muddathir? can't be code 19, it is more plausible to be a human therefore it is either Mohammad or R K or any other human for that matter to be accurate.

Let move on to the next 13 verses:

8: Finally, when the Trumpet is sounded,

9: That, at that time, shall be a difficult day,
.
10: For the unbelievers, anything but easy.

11: Leave Me and him whom I created alone,

12: And give him vast riches,

13: And sons dwelling in his presence,

14: And made (life) smooth for him.

15: And yet he desires that I should add more!

16: By no means! surely he offers opposition to Our communications.

17: On him I shall impose a fearful doom.

18: For he thought and he plotted;-

19: But may he be cursed how he plotted;

20: Again, may he be cursed how he plotted;

[The Quran ; 74:8-20]

فَإِذَا نُقِرَ فِي النَّاقُورِ (8)
فَذَلِكَ يَوْمَئِذٍ يَوْمٌ عَسِيرٌ (9)
عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ غَيْرُ يَسِيرٍ (10)
ذَرْنِي وَمَنْ خَلَقْتُ وَحِيدًا (11)
وَجَعَلْتُ لَهُ مَالًا مَّمْدُودًا (12)
وَبَنِينَ شُهُودًا (13)
وَمَهَّدتُّ لَهُ تَمْهِيدًا (14)
ثُمَّ يَطْمَعُ أَنْ أَزِيدَ (15)
كَلَّا إِنَّهُ كَانَ لِآيَاتِنَا عَنِيدًا (16)
سَأُرْهِقُهُ صَعُودًا (17)
إِنَّهُ فَكَّرَ وَقَدَّرَ (18)
فَقُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ (19)
ثُمَّ قُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ (20)

-> We can clearly see that Allah moved from talking to the Muddathir to talking about the JD all of a sudden, there is actually a link between the two subjects (The Muddathir & the JD), because that Muddathir was ordered to arise and deliver the warning 74:2 and surely most of the Quran messages are warnings regarding the very distressful JD, the verses started by the sign of the J D8: Finally, when the Trumpet is sounded,, then a confirmation to how distressful that day will be 9: That, at that time, shall be a difficult day,?, for the unbelievers the JD will be anything but easy,10: For the unbelievers, anything but easy., then the account must be given by all of us 11: Leave Me and him whom I created alone,, many of those who will give account on that distressful day were given the freedom in this life during the test but they failed:12: And give him vast riches, 13: And sons dwelling in his presence, 14: And made (life) smooth for him. and yet they were asking for more blessings:15: And yet he desires that I should add more!, they still asked for more despite all these blessings already given and most importantly despite their clear arrogance against the message sent by Allah:16: By no means! surely he offers opposition to Our communications., and now it is the time to pay the dues :17: On him I shall impose a fearful doom. , this is because whatever they thought and plotted :18: For he thought and he plotted;- is cursed :19: But may he be cursed how he plotted; ? and sure it is cursed :20: Again, may he be cursed how he plotted;

As you can see above, I kept my words to the min, I can't see that the sura for the first 20 verse is talking about the number 19 as brother Edip claimed, there is two main subjects the above 20 verses have talked about so far:

1) The Muddathir
2) The JD

Please keep in mind that the whole sura is 56 verses, 20 out of those verses are not talking about any numbers whatsoever, this is 37%, this is why I said that the statement of brother Edit is very stretched that the whole sura is about the number 19, so far we have 37% of the sura is not about any numbers, I will keep updating the percentage as I progress in the sura inshaallah.

Let's now walk through verses 21-25 (Shakir translation):


21: Then he looked,
22: Then he frowned and scowled,
23: Then he turned back and was big with pride,
24: ~Then he said: This is naught but enchantment, narrated (from others); .
25: This is naught but the word of a mortal.

[The Quran ; 74:21-25]

ثُمَّ نَظَرَ (21)
ثُمَّ عَبَسَ وَبَسَرَ (22)
ثُمَّ أَدْبَرَ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ (23)
فَقَالَ إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ يُؤْثَرُ (24)
إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِ (25)

-> At least the following verses are talking about the rich unbeliever who was given money and children yet asked for more and yet opposed the message of Allah, this guy whom Allah was talking about in 74:11-20 as I mentioned earlier:

20: Again, may he be cursed how he plotted;
21: Then he looked,
22: Then he frowned and scowled,
23: Then he turned back and was big with pride,
24: Then he said: This is naught but enchantment, narrated (from others); .
25: This is naught but the word of a mortal.


The above description of that type of human can be the description for those who reject code 19, this is because all those Muslims who reject code 19 and consider it a fabrication by R K, don't consider the Quran a fabrication, we don't say that the Quran : فَقَالَ إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ يُؤْثَرُ (24) ? Then he said: This is naught but enchantment, narrated (from others) ?, nor we say: إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِ (25) , ?This is naught but the word of a mortal. ?

The argument that the above verses are describing those Muslims who reject code 19 must be dismissed, the verses above are clearly talking about those who reject the message of the Quran as a whole. A confirmation to my statement here is as follow:

30: And when there came to them the truth they said: This is magic, and surely we are disbelievers in it.
31: And they say: Why was not this Quran revealed to a man of importance in the two towns?

[The Quran ; 43:30-31]

وَلَمَّا جَاءهُمُ الْحَقُّ قَالُوا هَذَا سِحْرٌ وَإِنَّا بِهِ كَافِرُونَ (30)
وَقَالُوا لَوْلَا نُزِّلَ هَذَا الْقُرْآنُ عَلَى رَجُلٍ مِّنَ الْقَرْيَتَيْنِ عَظِيمٍ (31)

-> See how it is said the exact same about the Quran as a whole: ? قَالُوا هَذَا سِحْرٌ ?, i.e. ? This is magic ?

Even 74:25 clearly refutes that the magic rejected in 74:24 is about code 19, because it says clearly that the rejectors will say : ? ِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِ ?, Ina Haza Ila Qawl Al Bashar ?[/b], i.e. ? This is naught but the word of a mortal ?, Haza is masculine which is referring to the Quran, as well the Quran is Qawl, i.e. ?Word ?, code 19 miracle however is feminine and can not be Qawl rather a hidden code.

Another example that the word Sihr is referring to the whole Quran and not a hidden code in it is as follow:

7: And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who disbelieve say with regard to the truth when it comes to them: This is clear magic.
8: Nay! they say: He has forged it. Say: If I have forged it, you do not control anything for me from Allah; He knows best what you utter concerning it; He is enough as a witness between me and you, and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful

[The Quran ; 46:7-8]

وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِلْحَقِّ لَمَّا جَاءهُمْ هَذَا سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ (7)
أَمْ يَقُولُونَ افْتَرَاهُ قُلْ إِنِ افْتَرَيْتُهُ فَلَا تَمْلِكُونَ لِي مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئًا هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا تُفِيضُونَ فِيهِ كَفَى بِهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَهُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ (8)

-> Again, it was said the same about the Quran that it is magic : ? This is clear magic ?, while the Quran was not mentioned directly as the previous example (43:30-31) it is obvious to the naked eye that the two verses above are about the Quran as a whole.

So far the percentage of the verses in sura 74 that are not talking about code 19 is 45%, this is almost half the sura and we can't see LOGICALLY ? that the verses are taking about any codes, remember what brother Edip claimed earlier?, the whole sura is about code 19 !!

Let's move on to next verses where Allah started to tell us more about the promised hell on the JD:
.
26: I will cast him into hell.
27: And what will make you realize what SAQAR is?
28: It leaves naught nor does it spare aught.
29: It scorches the mortal.
30: Over it are nineteen.
31: And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.

[The Quran ; 74:26-31]

سَأُصْلِيهِ سَقَرَ (26)
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا سَقَرُ (27)
لَا تُبْقِي وَلَا تَذَرُ (28)
لَوَّاحَةٌ لِّلْبَشَرِ (29)
عَلَيْهَا تِسْعَةَ عَشَرَ (30)
وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَلِيَقُولَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَذَا مَثَلًا كَذَلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَى لِلْبَشَرِ (31)


-> In a previous discussion with brother Edip, I believe he claims that SAQAR means something , sort of in the mind, well, SAQAR actually does not mean Jahannam as a whole, it will be illogical to take it as such, in fact it should mean part or a section in Jahannam, we know well that Jahannam has 7 gates and for each gate there will be a certain residents, therefore it is more proper to take SAQAR as one of these 7 sections of Hell, in fact Allah has told us about other sections of those 7 sections if not all of them, I will need to confirm that later on inshalllah, here is 5 verses that talk about another section of those 7 sections of hell called Al Hotamah, and you can see clearly how these verses about Al Hotamah rims almost identically (context wise) with 74:26-30:

4: Nay! he shall most certainly be hurled into the crushing disaster (Al Hotamah),

5: And what will make you realize what the crushing disaster (Al Hotamah) is?

6: It is the fire kindled by Allah,

7 : Which rises above the hearts.

8: Surely it shall be closed over upon them,

[The Quran ; 104:4-8]

كَلَّا لَيُنبَذَنَّ فِي الْحُطَمَةِ (4)
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا الْحُطَمَةُ (5)
نَارُ اللَّهِ الْمُوقَدَةُ (6)
الَّتِي تَطَّلِعُ عَلَى الْأَفْئِدَةِ (7)
إِنَّهَا عَلَيْهِم مُّؤْصَدَةٌ (8)

-> Compare these 5 verses with 74:26-30 and you get the sense that Allah is talking about almost the same thing, both SAQARand Al Hotamah must be almost the same thing .
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا سَقَرُ , ?And what will make you realize what SAQAR is ?
[74:27]
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا الْحُطَمَةُ , ?And what will make you realize what Al Hotamah is ?
[104:5]

I will have a rest then I will continue on replying to brother Edip arguments in his first comment regading the 74:30-31 inshaallah

Thanks Edip, Quraishi and all

Salam

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Post subject: Reply with quote  

www19org wrote:
What if Rashad did not planned it that way?


Hello Edip, Quraishi and all

Logically speaking, it is possible that he didn't plan it, what I'm saying that the possibility that he planned it still exists, there is nothing concrete to support that he didn't plan it other than his own claim.

www19org wrote:
What if you are just making it up?


I didn't make anything up, the possibilities are real:

1) He planned it
2) He discovered it accidentally

Can you please show concrete evidence that he never planned it?

www19org wrote:
Was not he was astronomically lucky that he could make the time of his declaration coincide with 1974 and 1406 (19*74). According to you, he was able to set the time of his birth and his discovery so that number 19 being mentioned in chapter 74 would have such an incredible feature; that is, the juxtaposition of these two numbers and their product, BOTH would relate to the time of his discovery? Again, as a matter of sheer luck, the name (The Hidden one) of the chapter too catered to his lie? Don't you give too much power to Rashad? The power to manipulate time and arrangement of the Quran before his birth?



Well, he also told us that he knows when the JD is coming while the Quran says the contrary that no one will ever know, sounds like he is the one that was making things up not me

www19org wrote:
Furthermore, had you cared to think about the consequence of your rejection of one of the greatest prophecies and divine signs, you would sit down and ask yourself the following question: This guy started hatching an egg, his fake research, in 1969 and published articles and then a book in 1973 about the statistics of Quranic initials, which made him an instant celebrity in the Muslim world, and somehow wanted to keep the real deal secret until one or two years later? Would a crook risk such an egg to be discovered by someone else, since there were numerous signs, though not very open at that time, about the common code among them?


I don't care about all that, what I care about is the Quran, did the Quran ever mention code 19?, this is our debate.

www19org wrote:
Besides, until late 1980's Rashad emphasized the year of the popularity of his discovery to be 1976. I know that he had no clue about the importance of the year of his discovery, which is 1974, until late 1980s. Until he became aware of the significance of 1974, he thought the year his work became popular in the Muslim world was important, since it was divisible by 19.


I have to say that Allah only knows, I can only study the evidences in light of the Quran, I'm not interested to debate his birth day nor his death day really, this has no merit whatsoever in our Quran discussion

www19org wrote:
Like all those who made up their minds to reject God's signs, you hang on your unjustified speculations and conjecture. The Day of Judgment you will see how flimsy your excuses had been.


Great, this also applies to you and to Rashad Khalifa


www19org wrote:
I am glad that you did not deny the meaning of al Muddathir.

And why I have to deny it?


www19org wrote:
In my understanding, the first verse of the chapter refers at least to three things.

1. Muhammad.
2. Rashad
3. The prophetic role of the number 19.


Cool, but it can't be referring to the three together, we don't need to confuse ourselves with a similar trinity concept

We have to eliminate possibility 3, because:

a) Allah can't be talking to the prophetic role of the number 19, 74:1
b) Allah can't be ordering the prophetic role of the number 19 to arise and deliver thy warning!, 74:2
c) Allah can't be ordering the prophetic role of the number 19 to magnify thy Lord, 74:3
d) The prophetic role of the number 19 can't have cloths, and an order was given to keep that cloths clean, 74:4
e) The prophetic role of the number 19 can't be ordered to shun the uncleanness, 74:5
f) The prophetic role of the number 19 can't be ordered not to show no favour to people in power, seeking worldly gain, 74:6
g) The prophetic role of the number 19 can't ordered to be patient for thy Lord's (Cause), 74:7


Therefore WE HAVE TO ELIMINATE POSSIBILITY 3

We are only left with :

1. Muhammad.
2. Rashad

NOTHING MORE

Which one I have to ask you brother Edip?

www19org wrote:
The rich language of the Quran is a unique feature and it perfectly fits its prophetic nature and its stated purpose, to remind all humanity until the end of the world as Gods final book.


Fine but not to stretch it to a degree to treat the prophetic role of code 19 as a human, this is insane


I will continue later on inshaallah


Salam all

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Post subject: 70 Doors of Hell Reply with quote  

BAHGAT: That is right, now the Muddathir under Edip understanding must mean '????The Hidden Sign , as well the word IT in '????Over it Ninteen must be referring to '????the Quran , i.e. Over the Quran is 19, the word IT is represented in the Arabic text by the DAMIR HA in the word AlaiHA, this DAMIR is feminine, i.e. it can't be the Quran because the Quran is masculine, i.e. if it is the Quran then it has to be HU, i.e. AlaiHU.

According to brother Edip understanding, the word IT then must be referring to the feminine Arabic word SIGN, in that case the words Over it Ninteen must be as follow: Over the SIGN is Ninteen , this does not make full sense, does it mean that the Sign is based on the number 19?, I guess so but I would like brother Edip to confirm please.

YUKSEL:: Now, the reason for brother Bahgat's denial is exposed like a lost zebra trying to keep her balance on top of a loose icecap melting away in Antarctica. Brother Baghdat has indeed blinded himself to the simplest signs that even a student at sixth grade could notice. My purpose is not to insult him. But, his arrogant and dogmatic reaction to code 19 has blinded him to simple facts. This is a self-inflicted problem (7:146). I challenge my readers to take the Arabic original of verse 74:25-30 to Arabic speaking sixth graders, or its accurate English translation to English speaking sixth graders, provided that the latter group will be informed about the nature of feminine and masculine words in Arabic language; they will immediately locate the reference of the pronoun HA (it or feminine she) of verse 74:30. Knowing how the unappreciative people lose the sight of such an obvious reference, and how they come up with silly arguments, I addressed the issue in detail in an article titled, "Which One Do You See: Hell or Miracle?", which you will see below.

BAHGAT: This is an over statement,, the number 19 was only mentioned once, so to claim that the entire chapter is about the number 19 is nothing but wishful thinking really, let me start the sura from the beginning and see if the entire chapter is about the number 19:
As you can see above, I kept my words to the min, I can't see that the sura for the first 20 verse is talking about the number 19 as brother Edip claimed, there is two main subjects the above 20 verses have talked about so far:

1) The Muddathir
2) The JD

Please keep in mind that the whole sura is 56 verses, 20 out of those verses are not talking about any numbers whatsoever, this is 37%, this is why I said that the statement of brother Edit is very stretched that the whole sura is about the number 19, so far we have 37% of the sura is not about any numbers, I will keep updating the percentage as I progress in the sura inshaallah.

YUKSEL:: A careful and objective reader will notice that short verses build and prepare the reader to verse 74:30 and the verses afterwards describe the function of the number 19 and the reaction of people to it. Verse 74:30 is the longest verse in the Quran in proportion to the average length of verses in the chapters they belong. The reader, at the start, encounters "the hidden one" and is informed about a typical profile of an arrogant and ignorant antagonist with a fast paced series of short descriptions that lead to a question and a enigmatic answer in 74:30. The enigma is described in cryptic, yet prophetic words of in 74:31. Later, following a powerful emphasis on the importance of the prophecy, verse 74:37 describes those who would witness the prophetic fulfillment of these verses as "progressive" and depicts those who deprive themselves from such a blessing as "regressive" people. The rest of the chapter elaborates on the characteristics of two groups and connects them to their reaction to the prophetic message (ZiKRa).

BAHGAT: The above description of that type of human can be the description for those who reject code 19, this is because all those Muslims who reject code 19 and consider it a fabrication by R K, don't consider the Quran a fabrication, we don't say that the Quran : فَقَالَ إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ يُؤْثَرُ (24) Then he said: This is naught but enchantment, narrated (from others) , nor we say: إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِ (25) , This is naught but the word of a mortal.

YUKSEL:: These verses, which are not the words of humans with limited knowledge, but divine description of unappreciative people of all colors and stripes, perfectly describe both those who reject the entire Quran and those who reject a prophecy or a sign of the Quran. No wonder, to accomplish this timeless and prophetic description, the author of the Quran deliberately leaves open he reference of HAZA (this) in verse 74:24-25. In brief, "Haza" (this) refers to the whole Quran as well as its parts or any event prophesized by its verses/signs. You belong to a regressive group that rejects the prophecy foretold in this chapter, a group that do not appreciate awesome meaning embedded in numerous Quranic signs and elements, such as the meaning and function of 29 initial letter/number combinations, the number of chapters being 114, the numerical aspect of divine attributes, the meaning of missing Basmalah in the beginning of chapter 9 and its restoration 19 chapters, and many more. In sum, you profess faith in a book because of the number of people surrounding you or similar fallacies, while the Quran wants you to accept it based on mathematical evidence, knowledge and rational inferences. Your faith will not lead where the Quran leads, but it will lead you only to conventional ignorance or your wishful thinking.

BAHGAT:
In a previous discussion with brother Edip, I believe he claims that SAQAR means something , sort of in the mind, well, SAQAR actually does not mean Jahannam as a whole, it will be illogical to take it as such, in fact it should mean part or a section in Jahannam, we know well that Jahannam has 7 gates and for each gate there will be a certain residents, therefore it is more proper to take SAQAR as one of these 7 sections of Hell, in fact Allah has told us about other sections of those 7 sections if not all of them, I will need to confirm that later on inshalllah, here is 5 verses that talk about another section of those 7 sections of hell called Al Hotamah, and you can see clearly how these verses about Al Hotamah rims almost identically (context wise) with 74:26-30:
Compare these 5 verses with 74:26-30 and you get the sense that Allah is talking about almost the same thing, both SAQARand Al Hotamah must be almost the same thing.
"And what will make you realize what SAQAR is?" [74:27]
"And what will make you realize what Al Hotamah is?" [104:5]

YUKSEL: You appear to know the Hell pretty well and you are now venturing to identify its gates and hang the labels on each door. You are not alone. All those who cannot see the mathematical miracle of the Quran are doomed to see Hell. When they debate the issue, they indulge in analysis of fire and hell; an outsider may see them as Hell-experts. This is exactly where they will end up if they maintain their opposition to God's signs in the scripture and nature.

As for similarities between the questions, Indeed the questions are similar; but the answers are different. You confused the answers. I teach logic courses at college and it had you used this line of reasoning in your final paper you would perhaps flunk the class.

Here are some clues:

"And what will make you realize what Day of DEEN is?" (82:18)
"And what will make you realize what ILLIYUN is?" (83:19)
"And what will make you realize what TAREQ is?" (86:2)
"And what will make you realize what the Night of QADR is?" (97:2)

According to your "similarities" test, they all must be other doors of Hell! With this kind of reasoning you will surely have more than 7 doors for the Hells of your imagination, my brother.


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Post subject: Which One Do You See: Hell or Miracle? Reply with quote  

Which One Do You See:
HELL OR MIRACLE?


By Edip Yuksel
www.19.org

From the smoke of hell-fire in their minds, hypocrites and unappreciative people are not able to witness one of the greatest miracles.


I know that the title and the subtitle of this article are quite challenging. If you have developed an attitude against witnessing the mathematical miracle of the Quran, you are justified to get upset with these words and perhaps get little angry. You might have already blinded your eyes and closed your ears with one or more false, contradictory, trivial, or irrelevant excuses, such as:

1. God uses literary styles to prove the authenticity of His word; but not mathematics. God is not a mathematician and His word has nothing to do with math.
2. If Muhammad was not aware of a mathematical miracle in the Quran, then it cannot be true. Muhammad knew everything in the Quran. The knowledge contained in the Quran is limited with Muhammad's knowledge and understanding more than 14 centuries ago.
3. If I accept a mathematical structure in the Quran based on number 19, then I will be denying two Quranic verses in the end of Chapter 9, and thus would contradict the majority of Muslims and their manuscripts. Besides, I would be contradicting the verses guaranteeing the perfect preservation of the Quran.
4. Some verses of the Quran are Mutashabih; none can understand their meaning except God. The proponents of 19-based mathematical system in the Quran are indulging in those Mutashabih verses.
5. The number 19 is heresy, since it is the holy number of Bahai sect.
6. Though I can balance my check and shop in the stores, I am innumerate when it comes to the 19.
7. We can find many mathematical phenomena if we spend enough time on any book. For instance, the Bible Code claimed that the distorted translations of the Bible contain impressive coded prophecies.
8. The Quran cannot contain secrets, mysteries or prophecies; it is a clear book.
9. What about the previous generations; will they all go to hell?
10. The claim of a 19-based mathematical code is a mythology.
11. The claim of a 19-based mathematical code is a magic.
12. There are many other numbers in the Quran and the number 19 has no special place.
13. There are problems in the count of letters or words. For instance, the first verse of the Quran does not have 19 letters; it has 18, 20, 21, or 22 letters, but not 19. For instance, the counts of A.L.M. letters have errors.
14. Part of the numerical claim is based on the Gematria system (ABJAD), a Jewish fabrication and a deceptive tool used by numerologists and astrologists.
15. The pronoun "it" in verse 74:30 is feminine and it refers to Hell not the Quran. Thus verse 74:30-31 is about guardians of hell, not a mathematical proof of authenticity.
16. Even if there is such a code in the Quran it is not important. We need to follow the instruction of the book. We need to focus on how to fight against infidels.
17. The discoverer of Code 19 claimed to be the messenger of God. He deserved divine retribution. Thus, he was killed in early 1990 by an Al-Qaida affiliate American cult, al-Fuqra, as Al-Qaida's first act in the USA.
18. If we believe in code 19, then we would end up rejecting holy teachings of Hadith and Sunnah.
19. Code 19 is a Zionist trick.
20. I already believe in the Quran and I do not need miracles.
21. I believe in the Quran because its message is true.
22. I believe in the Quran because it does not contain contradictions.
23. I believe in the Quran on blind faith and I do not need any reason for my belief.
24. And, many more excuses, reasons or lack of them...

I will deal with all these excuses, and God willing, I will respond each of them one by one; but first thing first:

Whatever are your EXCUSES or REASONS to ignore, reject, or ridicule the number 19, this article will expose your true intentions, which you might be trying to hide even from yourself (11:5). If you are claiming to believe in the Quran, and after reading this article still continue ignoring or ridiculing the mathematical code of the Quran, you will be TORMENTED all your life by repeatedly witnessing an exciting fact and losing its sight afterwards, like a person who witnesses succeeding events of lightning in the darkness (2:17-20). You will neither appreciate nor comprehend the miracle, nor will you be satisfied with your denial. You will perpetually oscillate between momentary belief end prolonged disbelief, between private doubt and public denial. You will be doomed to SAQAR here and in the hereafter.

But, if you have faith and gained some goodness in your faith, then this article, by God's will, may wake you up from ignorance, and may change your paradigm (6:158). You will never be the same; you will be among the progressives (74:30-37). You will be one of the few who are blessed by God to witness one of the greatest miracles. You will be sure about your faith, a faith not based on self-deceptive claims, on conformity with a religious group, or on blind faith, or wishful thinking; but a faith based on knowledge gathered from empirical and rational evidence corroborated by spiritual experience (41:53; 74:31). You will experience God's presence in your life and attain happiness promised to believers and submitters (9:124; 10:64; 16:89). You will dedicate all your life to serve God alone without remorse or fear (2:62; 3:170; 10:62; 46:13). You will understand many Quranic verses that had not much meaning for you (2:1,108). Every time you see an unappreciative disbeliever denying or mocking the 19-based system, your knowledge-based faith will be justified. And the more people do not see what you and few others have witnessed will increase the importance, power and the wonder of the prophetic description of 74:31 in your mind. You will attain certainty (74:31; 27:1-3; 2:260; 13:2; 2:118; 45:20). However, witnessing this miracle will also put some responsibility on you (5:115; 47:25).
Let's start from the translation of verses 21-37 of chapter 74, The Hidden One:

74:21 He looked.
74:22 He frowned and scowled.
74:23 Then he turned away arrogantly.
74:24 He said, "This is but an impressive illusion/magic!"
74:25 "This is human made."
74:26 I will cast him into SAQAR!
74:27 And what will explain to you what the SAQAR is?
74:28 It leaves nothing, it lets nothing (NOT MORE, NOT LESS; PRECISE; PERFECT);
74:29 VISIBLE (LAWAHATUN) to PEOPLE (BASHAR) (universal)!
74:30 On it is Nineteen.

74:31 As guardians of fire we appointed none except angels, and we assigned their number (1) to torment the unappreciative disbelievers, (2) to convince People of the Book, (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of People of the Book, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who have disease in their hearts, and the unappreciative disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills (or, whoever wills), and guides whomever He wills (or, whoever wills). None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. IT (HIYA) is a reminder for the people.

74:32 Indeed, by the Moon.
74:33 By the night as it passes.
74:34 And the morning as it shines.
74:35 This (NUMBER) is one of the GREATEST (KUBRA).
74:36 A WARNING (NAZEER) for the PEOPLE (BASHAR).
74:37 For those who want to progress or regress.

Though the function of 19 is listed in Chapter 74, conventionally known Muddassir (The Hidden One), its implication and fulfillment was kept hidden according to God's will as the Quran's secret for 19x74 lunar years after its revelation to Muhammad. However, the All-wise God, unveiled this secret via a monotheist scientist in 1974, according to the most commonly used calendar, a calendar allegedly based on the birth of Jesus, which is considered a holy day and the sign of the End (19:15). As a result, the number 19, as the miraculous code of the Quran and the Bible strengthened and continue to strengthen the faith of believers, removed and continue to remove doubts in the heart of people of the book, and intellectually tormented and continue to torment hypocrites and unappreciative disbelievers.

Now let's first discuss the words written in CAPITAL letters in the translation of the verses above. Then, we will discuss each of the popular excuses used by the unappreciative disbelievers of the miracle 19.

We should understand the meaning of these words by first referring to their usage in the Quran. Their immediate context as well as their use in other verses is usually sufficient to illuminate their meanings. For believers who have been lucky to witness this great miracle, the meaning of the verses above is good news; it gives them hope, enlightens them, informs them, and turns their faith from wishful thinking or conjecture to knowledge-based faith. Thus, the rhetorical value of these verses is very high for believers:

74:27 ---> SAQAR (saqar, to be defined by the following verses)
74:28 ---> (NOT MORE, NOT LESS; PRECISE; PERFECT);
74:29 ---> LAWAHA (obvious; visible; tablet; screen)
74:29 ---> BASHAR (humans; people)
74:31 ---> HIYA (it; reference to the number 19)
74:31 ---> ZIKRA (reminder; message)
74:35 ---> HA (it; referring to the number 19)
74:35 ---> KUBRA (great miracles)
74:36 ---> NEZEER (warner to be embraced and supported)

On the other hand, those who have deprived themselves from witnessing the miracle 19 because of their ill intentions or their dogmatic rejection try hard to render these key words incompatible with the semantic context of the Quran. They conceive God of the Quran as an angry and despotic God who is not able provide any reasonable argument against those who question the Quran's authenticity, but only resorts to intimidation: "I will burn you in hell!!!" The God they depict has double standard: He asks the disbelievers to bring their evidence for their argument (2:111; 11:17; 21:24; 27:64; 28:75; 35:40) but for His argument He only wants to scare them! The opponents of 19-based miracle, by distorting the meaning of the words in these verses, manage to blind themselves to one of the most profound philosophical and theological arguments and evidences in history. Not only they divert themselves from the right path they try to divert others too (6:25-26; 22:3; 41:83).

Thus, the understanding (more accurately, the misunderstanding) of those who cannot appreciate God as He should be (6:90-91), the argument for Quran's authenticity is scorching, burning, dark, hellish, misfortune, disastrous, and scary. Thus, in the minds of opponents of miracle 19, the rhetorical value of these verses is simply a threat to burn and torture:

74:27 ---> SAQAR (hell-fire)
74:28 ---> (NEITHER LEAVES THE FLESH NOR THE BONES; DESTROYS CONTINUALLY);
74:29 ---> LAWAHA (scorching; burning; shriveling)
74:29 ---> BASHAR (skin)
74:31 ---> HIYA (it; referring to hell-fire)
74:31 ---> ZIKRA (news of disaster)
74:35 ---> HA (it; referring to hell-fire
74:35 ---> KUBRA (great punishment; gravest misfortune; dire scourge)
74:36 ---> NAZEER (warning to be escaped)

Now let's one by one discuss each of these words, which were widely and perhaps JUSTIFIABLY misunderstood by pre-1974 generations, and yet are intentionally distorted by the post-1974 opponents of one of the greatest miracles.

DOES "SAQAR" IN 74:27 MEAN HELL OR SOMETHING ELSE?

Though prominent Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan-ul Arab and specialized dictionaries such as Mufradat Fi Gharib-il Quran acknowledge that the word might be of foreign origin with no Arabic derivatives, these and other dictionaries and commentaries of the Quran do not hesitate defining it as hell or heat radiating from Sun. Lisan-ul Arab refers to a Hadith which uses a bizarre derivative of the word Saqar to mean "liars". The word SaQaR is mentioned four times in the Quran, three times in Chapter 74 and once in 54:48. In the later one, the word SaQaR is used in a statement warning that when criminals will be dragged to the fire they will be told: "taste the touch of Saqar". From this verse one might infer that Saqar is another word for fire; but a better inference is that Saqar is a negative feeling or state of mind one tastes after being committed to the divine punishment. In this case, there is no reason to think that this negative state of mind could not be obtained from experiences other than fire.

The Arabic word for hell is GaHyM or GaHaNnaM. The word NAR (Fire), though not a specific name for hell, is also frequently used to denote the same phenomenon. However, the word NAR (fire) is also used in its literal meaning, which is simply fire. For instance, verses 20:10-14 describe God's communication with Moses through fire. Obviously, this fire in the holy land where God spoke through cannot be the Hell. Similarly, the word SaQaR does not necessarily mean hell. In fact, the semantic connection of SaQaR with hell is allegorical, since SaQaR is a descriptive word derived from the verb SaQaRa rather than a noun like GaHYM, GaHaNnaM.

In any case, the verse 74:27 does not ask nor expect us to rush into defining the meaning of this word, which it appears to be its first usage in the Quran. We are warned against rushing to define Quranic words or attempting to preempt the Quranic definition by prematurely assigning a meaning to a verse before considering its immediate or Quranic context or fulfillment (20:114; 75:16-19). Doing so is a sign of pretension and arrogance. Since the word is rarely used in the Quran (total four and three of them is in this chapter) and this verse is most likely the first usage of this rare word, it is more appropriate to wait the Quran explain the word. In brief, rushing to limit/define the meaning of the word Saqar in the verse "Do you know what SaQaR is?" is a disrespectful act against the Quran. When the Quran asks "Do you know what X means?" it does not want us to try to understand the meaning of X in the very question about its meaning! It is a rhetorical question. God wants to pull your attention to its modified or new meaning. The Quran uses this question 13 times either to modify the meaning of an already used word or to add another nuance (See: 69:3; 74:27; 77:14; 82:17-18; 83:8, 19; 86:2; 90:12; 97:2; 101:3, 10; 104:5).

Nevertheless, we see that almost all commentators or translators of the Quran have rushed to translate SaQaR as Hell or Fire:

Yusuf Ali: "Soon I will cast him into Hell-Fire!"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "Him shall I fling unto the burning."
T.B. Irving: "I'll roast him by scorching!"
M. H. Shakir: "I will cast him into Hell."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "I will cast him into hell."
N. J. Dawood: "I will surely cast him to the fire of Hell. "
Muhammad Asad: "[Hence,] I shall cause him to endure hell-fire [in the life to come]!"
Rashad Khalifa: "I will commit him to retribution"

As you see, none leave the word SaQaR as it is. However, Rashad Khalifa, as the one who was chosen to fulfill this great prophecy, renders the word SaQar accurately by translating it with a general word, "retribution." Yasar Nuri Ozturk, a Turkish theology professor, in his post-1974 translation of the Quran, translated the word SaQaR under the light of the descriptive verses and related discoveries as the COMPUTER with succeeding screens manifesting the mathematical miracle of the Quran to all people.

So, we should not prime our minds or blind ourselves with prejudice by assuming SaQaR as HELL-FIRE before reading the following verses (75:16-19; 20:114).

DOES "IT LEAVES NOTHING; IT LETS NOTHING" IN 74:28 MEAN "EXACT, PRECISE" OR "DESTROYS FLESH AND BONES"?

Though the short verse is not generally mistranslated, but its meaning and implication is distorted. In the light of the context and post-1974 discoveries we should understand it is description of the 19-based mathematical structure that is exact. It does neither leave extra (BaQaYa) nor it let anything necessary go away (WaZaRa); in other words, it is perfect and precise; it is not one more not one less!

However, parroting the pre-1974 commentaries of the Quran, many translations and commentaries still convey the same misunderstanding. Since English translations usually do not comment on this particular verse and leave it to be understood within the context of CORPORAL PUNISHMENT, HELL and FIRE rather than the crucial role of the NUMBER NINETEEN, I will give you a sample of some popular Arabic commentaries of the Quran (which I have easy access in my personal library) in ascending chronological order. If the name of the commentary different than the name of the author his name will be indicated in the parenthesis. The number in parenthesis is the year of the authors' death:

Tabari (922): Neither kills nor leaves alive; or devours them all and when they are recreated do not leaves them until eating them.
Tha'alibi (1035): Does not leave the dweller of hell alone and burns them.
Bagawi (1122): Neither kills nor leaves alive; eats everything thrown in; does not leave their flesh nor take their bones.
Nasafi (1143): Does not leave the flesh nor does let the bones of its dwellers; destroys everything in it and then restores them back to their starting point.
Baydawi (1292): It does not leave anything thrown in and does not leave it until destroys it.
Qurtubi (1272): Does not leave for them neither flesh, nor bone, nor blood, but burns them. Or does not leave anything from them and then does not let them go when they are recreated.
Zad-ul Masir (Ibn Cawzi, 1200): Does not leave but destroys their flesh and does not let them go when they are recreated.
Ibn Kathir (1372): Eat their flesh, sweat, bones, and skin. They do not die in this condition or they live.
Jalalayn (Celaleddin, 1459): Destroys flesh and bones, then starts it again.
Ruh-ul Maani (Alusi 1853): Destroys flesh, bones of everything thrown in.

Interestingly, one can understand the verse as pre-1974 commentators understood. Though they all heavily relied on Hadith for understanding of this verse, and knowing that there were literally thousands competing to fabricate hadith for various reasons we cannot prove whether Muhammad and his believing friends too understood that way. In fact, since we know that Muhammad and his friends had no clue about the mathematical structure of the Quran but had faith in its promise of QURANIC MIRACLES being manifested in the future (10:20; 25:4-6; 29:50-51; 41:53), it is highly conceivable that they understood the fact that these verses were about the importance of the number 19 and that their meaning would be fulfilled in the future. I further assert that Muhammad and those who dedicated their religion to God alone by upholding the Quran as the sole authority in their religion, stopped speculating on these verses as soon as they received the divine instruction in 75:16-19. As we know, after Muslims started following the fabricated hadiths, sunnah, and man-made teachings of various sects (6:112-145; 6:159; 7:29; 9:31; 16:52; 18:57; 39:2,11;14; 39:29-37; 39:43-45; 40:14,65; 42:21; 98:5), they lost their capacity for understanding of the Quran (6:23-25; 17:46). (See FOOTNOTE 1 )

However, it is important to remember that the verses 74:26-37 contain many words that can be understood both a description of Hell and a description of a great miracle, though the later is a much better fit. This linguistically marvelous aspect is well appreciated by those who witness the mathematical miracle and understand the original language of the Quran.

DOES "LAWAHA" IN 74:29 MEAN SCORCHING/BURNING OR OBVIOUS/VISIBLE?

The derivatives of the word LWH are used in the Quran to mean a surface used for recording information, board, and flat wood; and nowhere is it used to mean scorch or burn. Before the fulfillment of the prophecy, translators and commentators of the Quran had difficulty in understanding the simple meaning of this word and thus, they resorted to external sources and often odd meanings, such as scorch, or burn. In fact, the drive to justify a particular meaning for some "difficult" Quranic words is one of the many reasons for fabricating Hadith. (See: FOOTNOTE 2).

Verse 74:29 is very interesting and crucial in understanding the rest of the chapter. Though it consists of only 2 words, this verse is translated in several different ways. Here are some examples from English Translations:

Yusuf Ali: "darkening and changing the color of man"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "It shrivelleth the man"
T.B. Irving: "as it shrivels human (flesh)."
M. H. Shakir: "It scorches the mortal."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "It scorches the mortal"
N. J. Dawood: "it burns the skins of men."
Muhammad Asad: "making (all truth) visible to mortal man."
Rashad Khalifa: "obvious to all the people."

Those who do not know Arabic might think that the words are really difficult to understand and translate. In fact, the meaning of these two words, LaWwaHa and BaSHaR is very clear in the Quranic context. The word LaWwaHa, which comes from the root LWH, is the sister of the word LaWH (85:22) and its plural aLWaH. The plural form aLWaH is used in verses 7:145, 150, 154 for the "tablets" given to Moses, and in verse 54:13 for broad planks used by Noah to build his ark. The medieval commentators, not knowing the mathematical implication of the verses, mostly chose an unusual meaning for the word: scorching, burning, shriveling, etc. Ironically, most of them did acknowledge the obvious meaning of the word as "open board, tablet" (See Baydawi, Fakhruddin Er-Razi, etc.) Few preferred the "obvious" to the obscure. For instance, Muhammad Asad, who had no idea of the mathematical code, preferred the most obvious meaning. Rashad Khalifa who fulfilled the prophecy and discovered the implication of the entire chapter reflected the same obvious meaning. That "obvious" meaning, however, was obscured by the smoke of "scorching fire" burning in the imaginations of generations before him.

In 7:145; 7:150; 7:154, the word alwah, the plural of lawha is used to depict the tablets on which the Ten Commandments were inscribed. In 54:13 it is used to describe the structure of the Noah's ship that made of wood panes. In 85:22 the same word is used for the mathematically protected record of the original version of the Quran. As for the lawaha of 74:29, it is the amplified noun-adjective derived from the root of verb LWH, meaning open tablets, succeeding screens, obvious, manifesto, or clearly and perpetually visible.

Ironically, the Quran uses different words to describe burning or scorching. For instance, for burning the derivatives of haraqa (2:266; 3:181; 7:5; 20:97; 21:68; 22:9; 22:22; 29:24; 75:10), or for scorching the derivatives of salaya ( 4:10; 4:30; 4:56; 4:115; 14:29; 17:18; 19:70; 27:7; 28:29; 29:31; 36:64; 38:56; 38:59; 38:163; 52:16; 56:94; 58:8; 69:31; 74: 26; 82:15; 83:16; 84:12; 87:12; 88:12; 92:15), or nadaja are used (4:56).

Again, we should note that the understanding of pre-1974 commentators was not without basis. Though their understanding did not rely on the Quranic usage of the words, and created some problems (such as explaining the verse 74:31), they had some justifiable excuses to understand the way they understood. The word lawaha also meant burn and bashara was another word for skin in Arabic language. As I mentioned above, the multiple meaning of these verses allowed the impatient pre-1974 generations to have an understanding, though a temporary and not primarily intended one. In fact, it was better for them to have patient and not rush to speculate on these verses without knowledge (20:114; 75:16-19). It was the computer generation destined to understand their real meaning (10:37-46).

DOES "BASHAR" IN 74:29 MEAN SKIN OR HUMAN?
The translation of the second word, BaSHaR is also among the distorted one. Many old commentaries translated it as "skin" rather then "human being" or "people" or "humans." For instance, N. J. Dawood parrots such a translation. The meaning of BaSHaR is also obvious in the context of the Quran. The word BASHAR occurs in the Quran 36 times. It is also mentioned as BASHARAYN (two bashars). If we exclude the BASHAR of 74:29 for the sake of the argument, we see that the word BASHAR is used to mean human beings in all 36 verses: 3:47; 3:79; 5:18; 6:91; 11:27; 12:31; 14:10; 14:11; 15:28; 15:33; 16:103; 17:93; 17:94; 18:110; 19:17; 19:20; 19:26; 21:3; 21:34; 23:24; 23:33; 23:34; 25:54; 26:104; 26:186; 30:20; 36:15; 38:71; 41:6; 42:51; 54:24; 64:6; 74:25; 74:29; 74:31; 74:36.

Then, why those who have allergy against the code 19 still insist to translate the word BaSHaR as skin while in its all 36 occurrences the word BaSHaR there is not a single instance where the word BaSHaR is used to mean skin; but always used to mean human beings? Especially, despite the fact that the word BASHAR occurs thrice in the same Chapter: after 74:29, in 74:31 and 74:36, and the fact that the verse 74:36 witnesses for the 36th times for "human beings," and that they were obliged to translate the last two occurrences as "human beings," how could they still insist on translating the BaSHaR of 74:29 as "skin." Since the prophetic verses did not make any sense for them before its fulfillment in 1974, translators and commentators of the Quran had an excuse to translate it differently before the fulfillment of the prophecy. However, after learning the discovery, none has an excuse to still continue parroting the overly stretched meaning.

Furthermore, the Quran uses "GeLD" for skin. This organic wrap that protects our body and provides tactile sense is referred in 13 verses with GLD and its derivatives: 4:56; 4:56; 16:80; 22:20; 24:2; 24:2; 24:4; 24:4; 39:23; 39:23; 41:20; 41:21; 41:22.

In short, while the Quran consistently uses GLD and its derivatives for skin and related words and while it consistently uses BShR for human beings, a convincing reason must be provided for ignoring all these examples and translating the BShR of 74:39 as "skin." The pre-1974 generations can be excused for trying to understand these verses even if it meant accepting some uncommon usages or dialects. As for post-1974 generation, if they are still stuck with hell and fire, then they share the same disease with the disbelievers of the past (2:75; 4:46; 5:13; 5:41).

After the fulfillment of the prophecy and divine clarification of its context, it is distortion to render this two-word verse 74:29 as "shrivels/scorches the skin" or "shrivels/scorches the man" rather than "it is clearly visible for human beings" or "it is a manifesto/successive-screens for human beings." However, the repetitive stretch and distortion committed by the post-1974 translators/commentaries on the many verses of Chapter 74 is bizarre and extraordinary. This pattern is prophetically described by verses 2:18; 3:7; 11:28; 41:44; 17:72; 25:73; 27:81.

DOES THE PRONOUN "HIYA" (SHE) IN THE END OF 74:31 REFER TO THE HELL OR TO THE NUMBER 19?

We know that verse 74:30 does not qualify the reference of 19. It pulls our attention to a NUMBER ALONE. The verse does not say "on it nineteen angles" or "on it nineteen guards" or "on it nineteen this or that." The verse says "on it nineteen." Period. Verse 74:31, after informing us that the number of guardians of hell is 19, isolates this number from hell again describes its role.

Yet, those whose minds stuck in Hell cannot even notice this evident emphasis to the number. Thus, they violate the general grammar rules and universal linguistic logic and identify the reference of HIYA (SHE) in the end of 74:31 as HELL FIRE.

According to the grammar rules and common linguistic logic, the reference of a pronoun should be sought in proximity first. Sure, if there is no compelling empirical or rational reason for skipping a closer noun. For instance, "Yesterday, at Mary's home I saw Lisa. She was very thoughtful." In this sentence grammar and logic leads us to think that the thoughtful person was Lisa not Mary. But, "Yesterday, in Delhi's streets on the back of an elephant I saw Lisa. She was swinging her trunk/hose left and right and walking majestically." (I had given the original example in Turkish and in Turkish the same word is used for both elephant's trunk and hose. For didactic purposes please assume that it is the same in English.) Though grammatically the best candidate for reference of SHE is Lisa, we have an empirical reason to ignore the general rule since the one who would swing her trunk/hose is the elephant. But if these sentences are in a story and if we are told that Lisa was walking in the street with a hose in her hand, then the SHE in the sentence may equally refer to elephant OR Lisa. There will be ambiguity and if it is intentionally done then we wonder the purpose of the ambiguity. But, if the sentences continue, "When she hit the trunk/hose in her hand to a store sign," then we become sure that it was a hose not trunk. "Your mother had given you a walnut and a book. Have you eat and finished it?" A sound mind can easily deduce that that "it" refers not to the book, but to the walnut. But, if the question were "Your mother had given you a walnut and a book. Have you finished it?" then, an ambiguity will arise. However, if the context of the question is known then we can deduce whether the query is about finishing the book or the walnut or both.

The pronoun HIYA (SHE), based on the rules of grammar, the emphasis of the verse in its context, and based on the rhetorical superiority of its meaning, must be referred to the grammatically feminine closest noun IDDATAHUM (their number, that is Nineteen). How can we explain the act of skipping IDDATAHUM (their number, Nineteen) by ignoring the grammar, context, emphasis, and rhetoric, and insisting to reach the FIRE?

We will see in the miraculously elegant and prophetic expression of the Quran that hypocrites and unappreciative people have deserved the SaQaR penalty both in this world and hereafter. In this world as the 19-based mathematical code of the Quran; they will be intellectually tormented by its powerful evidences. And in the hereafter as the 19 guards of symbolic hell-fire; they will be convicted to eternally face the number 19 in the presence of guarding angles. (See FOOTNOTE 3)
DOES THE "ZIKRA" (REMINDER) IN 74:31 REFER TO HELL OR THE EVIDENCE?
This brings us to the last phrase of verse 74:31 "it/this is a warning/reminder for mankind." Old commentaries and their parroting contemporaries refer "it/this" to the FIRE or HELL.

Those who have difficulty in accepting the possibility of an intellectual argument in The Hidden One (Muddathir), insert a HELL in the translation or the understanding of the last phrase of 74:31:

"This (HELL) is a warning for people."

This way, they transform the ZiKRa to a warning to be scared, to a penalty to avoid. However, all the derivatives of ZKR, including ZiKRa, are used in the Quran 273 times; and if we include DKR which is mentioned 7 times; this word is mentioned 280 times in the Quran and NOWHERE is it used to describe HELL or FIRE. You may check for yourself all the 21 verses where the word ZiKRa is mentioned: 6:68; 6:69; 6090; 7:2; 11:114; 11:120; 21:84; 26:209; 29:51; 38:43; 38:46; 39:21; 40:54; 44:13; 50:8; 50:37; 51:55; 74:31; 80:4; 87:9; 89:23. You may also check the two verses where the word is suffixed with pronouns ZiKRaha and ZiKRahum: 47:18; 79:43.

More interestingly, however, you will find another derivative of the same word "ZiKRa" (reminder) is used in verse 74:49 as "taZKiRa."

"Why do they turn away from this message/reminder (taZKiRa)?"

The disbelievers had ignored the reminder! Obviously, hell cannot be that reminder, since you are not supposed to embrace and face hell while you are alive on this earth. You are expected to turn away from Hell and turn to the message (taZKiRa). Therefore, taZKiRa and ZiKRa cannot be both HELL and the MESSAGE of the Quran. All the derivatives of ZKR are consistently used in the Quran for the divine message that revives and bestows eternal happiness.

Because of the self-ignited and self-inflicted hell fire burning in their minds, the disbelievers and hypocrites ignore the PLEASANT meaning associated to the word 280 times, and fight with us to keep it as HELL. Well, this was exactly what they were promised and what they deserve. Their initial decision, their prejudice, ignorance and arrogance, have led them to bet their faith on hell, a questionable one chance against 280 chances!

HOW DOES THE NUMBER NINETEEN INCREASE THE FAITH OF BELIEVERS AND ALSO REMOVE DOUBTS FROM THE MINDS OF PEOPLE OF THE BOOK AS PROMISED IN 74:31?

With the exception of Rashad Khalifa, all the translations and commentaries listed above have had big problem with this question. Since they did not accept it as a prophecy left to be fulfilled in the future, and since they rushed to speculate on them without knowledge, they dug a hole for themselves. Surely, they always could deceive themselves and others by claiming that THEIR FAITH was increased because of the association of the number 19 with the guardians of hell. This claim obviously would be a non-falsifiable claim. One can say anything about his or her own faith. However, this claim could not explain why specifically 19 and not another number or another thing. Let's assume they could pretend that their faith was really increased by the nineteen guardians of hell, but how could they explain the other functions of the number nineteen? How could this number nineteen remove the doubts of people of the book? The proponents of HELL-19 just could not make up an answer for this, since the issue involved an OBJECTIVE fact, not a subjective claim.

Interestingly, those who saw the Hell-fire in these prophetic verses claimed that the people of the book would believe in the Quran because they would see that the number of guardians of hell was also nineteen in their own books! What? Please read it again. Yes, this is the explanation of all the prominent Sunni and Shiite scholars of the past and unfortunately it is exactly parroted by the contemporary ones!

First, there is no such a statement in the Bible. Second, even if there was such a statement there would not be anything special about nineteen, since there are many principles, stories of prophets, and instructions mentioned in the Quran that are also in the Bible. In fact, the very existence of similarity had an opposite effect on many people of the book; they claimed and still claim that the Quran was plagiarized from the Bible. Third, none has been persuaded regarding the authenticity of the Quran because the number of guardians of hell is nineteen! I personally communicated and met dozens of Christians or Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran was removed because of their witnessing the mathematical miracle of the Quran based on the number nineteen. You can find some of these people on Internet forums. This is happening despite the aggressive misinformation and disinformation campaign carried out by numerous Sunni and Shiite groups. Compare the prophetic role of MIRACLE-19 to the role of HELL-19 in their powers of removing doubts from the minds of People of the Book. Two DECADES versus more than 14 CENTURIES, and several THOUSAND people versus more than a BILLION people.

The HELL-19 advocates cannot show a single Christian or Jew who converted to their version of Islam because their doubts were removed after they noticed that the number of guardians of hell is also 19 in their books! This failure alone should be sufficient to wake up those who are still eager to see Hell in these verses. Yet, they still shamelessly repeat this lie to defend their hellish version.

Some opponents of the CODE-19 even tried to use a phrase in verse 74:31 against understanding of the very verse. They quote the fifth function of the number nineteen, "to expose those who have disease in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, 'What did God mean by this allegory?'" and then charge us: "You 19ers are asking this question; therefore, you have disease in your hearts." First, none of us have asked this question, including Rashad Khalifa. We happened to learn the meaning of number nineteen even before asking such a question. We know the meaning of this allegory and we do not challenge that meaning. Furthermore, this question is not a question of a curious person who sincerely wants to learn the meaning of the Quran. This question is the challenge of arrogance and ignorance. It is a question that many still millions of Sunni and Shiite people are asking themselves. They will keep asking this question as long as they follow their ancestors blindly and worship Prophet Muhammad and religious scholars.

DOES THE "HA" IN 74:35 REFER TO HELL OR THE NUMBER 19? DOES THE WORD "KUBRA" IN THE SAME VERSE REFER TO "GREAT DISASTERS AND CALAMITIES" OR TO "GREAT SIGNS AND MIRACLES"?

When we reflect on the context and the usage of the words of verse "This is one of the greatest" we can easily deduce that this refers to the number 19 and its prophetic function as a conclusive evidence for the authenticity of the Quran and a great test for people. Unfortunately, many of those who did not witness the incredible mathematical structure based on the number 19, related this verse to Hell, again.

Let's one by one see several different translations of this verse. (Again, the pre-1974 translations have an excuse in their mistranslations since they did not witness the fulfillment of the prophecy of the mathematical miracle):

Yusuf Ali: "this is but one of the mighty (portents)"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)"
T.B. Irving: "Surely it is one of the gravest (misfortunes)."
M.H. Shakir: "Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "Surely it is one of the gravest (misfortunes)"
N. J. Dawood: "it is a dire scourge."
Muhammad Asad: "Verily, that [hell-fire) is Indeed one of the great [forewarnings]"
Rashad Khalifa: "This is one of the greatest miracles."

I leave for you to assess the contextual reference of the pronoun in 74:35. Here, I will draw your attention to the descriptive word KuBeR, which is the plural of KaBeeR derived from KBR (great). The derivatives of KBR are used in the Quran to describe positive or negative events, people, or things. For instance, in verses 20:23; 44:16; 53:18; 79:20 it is used to describe God's ayaats or miracles. The derivatives of the same word are used for disaster in 79:34 and hell in 87:12.

In other words, if we do not consider the context of the group of verses, we may understand the reference of THIS IS ONE OF THE GREATEST as either HELL FIRE or one of God's greatest MIRACLES. Through this verse alone, one may see flames of fire or signs of a miracle. Nevertheless, considering the context of this verse it becomes clear that the first vision is a man-made hallucination and the later a divine gift.

DOES THE WORD NAZER IN 74:36 REFER TO THE HELL FIRE OR TO THE DEVINE EVIDENCES?

NAZER is an adjective derived from the root NZR and means "WARNER" Throughout the Quran the various derivatives of this word occur 130 times. Here are the verse numbers where the form NaZeR (warner) occurs 44 times: 2:119; 5:19; 5:19; 7:184; 7:188; 11:2; 11:12; 11:25; 15:89; 17:105; 25:1; 25:7; 25:51; 25:56; 26:115; 28:46; 29:50; 32:3; 33:45; 34:28; 34:34; 34:44; 34:46; 35:23; 35:24; 35:24; 35:37; 35:42; 35:42; 38:70; 41:4; 43:23; 46:9; 48:8; 51:50; 51:51; 53:56; 67:8; 67:9; 67:17; 67:26; 71:2; 74:36.

In NONE of these verses the word NaZeR is used for HELL or FIRE. In these verses NaZeR describe God's messengers, books, revelation, and signs.

THEN WHY THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE MUSLIMS DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR APPRECIATE THE PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT OF THESE AYAAT (REVELATIONS/SIGNS/MIRACLES)? WHY THEY SEE AND WORK HARD TO SEE HELL-FIRE, INSTEAD OF THE PRECISE AND UNIVERSAL GREAT MIRACLE?

Surely, previous generations who were not aware the discovery of Code 19 via computer had an excuse to twist the meaning of obvious verses in order to make sense out of them. They could not imagine that the 19 was the code of an elaborate mathematical system. Nevertheless, some early commentators of the Quran who did not limit the understanding of the Quran with Hadith and Sunnah sensed something beyond HELL from these verses and discussed them as alternative understanding. For instance, Fakhruddin er-Razi in his famous Tafsir al Kabir, in his 23rd comment on Basmalah, speculates on the 19 letters of Basmalah and lists numerous implications, such as the difference between the number of 5 prayers and the number of hours in a day; the number of physical, intellectual, and emotional faculties that humans are blessed with, etc. Among the modern commentators who lived before 1974, Muhammad Asad is the only one that subscribes to Razi's interpretation of the number nineteen of 74:30. (See FOOTNOTE 4). However, Asad too could not avoid but see Hell everywhere.

The opponents of the miracle 19 are no different than those who rejected the entire Quran in the past. The description of these verses fits both groups, which is another miraculous aspect of the Quran:

74:21 He looked.
74:22 He frowned and scowled.
74:23 Then he turned away arrogantly.
74:24 He said, "This is but an impressive illusion/magic!" (See FOOTNOTE 5)
74:25 "This is human made."

In conclusion, those who reject to witness the miracle 19 are insulting the wisdom of God. According to them God's only answer to someone who challenges the authenticity of the Quran is: "Get lost! I will burn you in the hellfire" Depicting God as someone who cannot engage in an intellectual argument with His opponent, but can only employ the cheapest method of persuasion (threat) cannot be the path of believers who are warned by the incredible prophecies of this wonderful chapter, The Secret.

Turning back to the question: Then why those who claim to be Muslims do not understand or appreciate the prophetic fulfillment of these ayaat (revelations/signs/miracles)? Why they see and work hard to see hell-fire, instead of the precise and universal great miracle?

The Quran provides prophetic answers to this question in numerous verses. Please read and reflect on them:

"A.L.M. Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being tested? We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars." (29:1-4)

"Their example is like those who start a fire, then, as it begins to shed light its surrounding, God takes away their light, leaving them in darkness, unable to see. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they will not return." (2:17-18)

"I will divert from My revelations/signs/miracles (ayaat) those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of sign/miracle (ayat) they will not believe in. When they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path. Yet, when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our revelations/signs/miracles (ayaat) and of being heedless thereof." (7:146) (See, FOOTNOTE 6)

"They challenge you to bring the retribution, when Hell is already surrounding the unappreciative/disbelievers." (29:54) (Please read from 29:48)

"He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses- which constitute the essence of the scripture-as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this-all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed." (3:7) (See FOOTNOTE 7)

"When reminded of their Lord's revelations/signs/miracles, they never react to them as if they were deaf and blind." (25:73)

"Are they waiting for angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some manifestation/miracles of your Lord? The day some of the manifestation/miracles of your Lord come, no person will benefit from believing if he or she did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, 'Keep on waiting; we too will wait." (6:158).

"Some of them listen to you. But we place veils on their hearts to prevent them from understanding, and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what kind of sign/miracle they see, they cannot believe. Thus, when they argue with you, the unappreciative disbelievers will say, "These are tales from past." (6:25-26)

"When they arrive, He will say, "You have rejected My revelations/signs/miracles before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?" (27:84).

"They never expected an accounting/calculation. And they passionately rejected our revelations/miracles. Although we have counted everything in a record/book." (78:27-29).

"They cannot take heed against God's will. He is the source of righteousness; He is the source of forgiveness." (74:56).

Alhamdulillah.

NEXT: EXPOSING THE EXCUSES OF HYPOCRITES AND UNAPPRECIATIVE PEOPLE.

FOOTNOTES:

1. To see the examples of misunderstanding and distortion of Quranic verses by the followers of Hadith and Sunnah, please read the comparative section in the beginning of the Reformist Translation of the Quran.

2. Soon after Muhammad's death thousands of hadiths (words attributed to Muhammad) were fabricated and two centuries later compiled in the so-called "authentic" hadith books, to support the teaching of a particular sect against another (for instance, what nullifies ablution; which sea food is prohibited); to flatter or justify the authority and practice of a particular king against dissidents (such as, Mahdy and Dajjal); to promote the interest of a particular tribe or family (such as, favoring Quraysh tribe or Muhammad's family); to justify sexual abuse and misogyny (such as, Aisha's age; barring women from leading Salat prayers); to justify violence, oppression and tyranny (such as, torturing members of Urayna and Uqayla tribes, massacring Jewish population in Madina, assassinating a female poet for her critical poems); to exhort more rituals and righteousness (such as, nawafil prayers); to validate superstitions (such as, magic; worshiping the black stone near Kaba); to prohibit certain things and actions (such as, prohibiting drawing animal and human figures, playing musical instruments, chess); to import Jewish and Christian beliefs and practices (such as, circumcision, head scarf, hermitism, using rosary); to resurrect pre-islamic beliefs and practices common among Meccans (such as, intercession; slavery; ); to please crowds with stories (such as the story of Mirage and bargaining for prayers); to idolize Muhammad and claim his superiority to other messengers (such as, numerous miracles, including splitting the moon); to defend hadith fabrication against monotheists (such as, condemning those who find the Quran alone sufficient); and even to advertise a particular fruit or vegetables (such as, the benefits of date grown in Ajwa farm). In addition to the abovementioned reasons, many hadiths were fabricated to explain the meaning of the "difficult" Quranic words or phrases, or to distort the meaning of verses that contradicted to fabricated hadiths, or to provide trivial information not mentioned in the Quran (such as, Saqar, 2:187; 8:35)

3. For an article titled "Eternal Hell and Merciful God" visit www.yuksel.org OR www.19.org.

4. After translating the verse 74:30 as "Over it are nineteen (powers)" Muhammad Asad explains his parenthetical comment with the following footnote:

Whereas most of the classical commentators are of the opinion that the "nineteen"' are the angels that act as keepers or guardians of hell, Razi advances the view that we may have here a reference to the physical, intellectual and emotional powers within man himself: powers which raise man potentially far above any other creature, but which, if used wrongly, bring about a deterioration of his whole personality and, hence, intense suffering in the life to come. According to Razi, the philosophers (arbab al-hikmah) identify these powers or faculties with, firstly, the seven organic functions of the animal - and therefore also human - body (gravitation, cohesion, repulsion of noxious foreign matter, absorption of beneficent external matter, assimilation of nutrients, growth, and reproduction); secondly, the five "external" or physical senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste); thirdly, the five "internal" or intellectual senses., defined by Ibn Sina - on whom Razi apparently relies - as (1) perception of isolated sense-images, (2) conscious apperception of ideas, (3) memory of sense-images, (4) memory of conscious apperceptions, and (5) the ability to correlate sense-images and higher apperceptions; and, lastly, the emotions of desire or aversion (resp. fear or anger), which have their roots in both the "external" and "internal" sense-categories - thus bringing the total of the powers and faculties which preside over man's spiritual fate to nineteen. In their aggregate, it is these powers that confer upon man the ability to think conceptually, and place him, in this respect, even above the angels (cf. 2:30 ff. and the corresponding notes; see also the following note).

5. Magic is not considered an extraordinary, paranormal event by the Quran. Its influence on people is described by its two aspects: illusion and suggestion/bluffs/hypnosis (7:103-120). Magic is an art of influencing gullible people via illusion and hypnosis (7:11; 20:66; 2:102). So, when the unappreciative disbeliever describes the Quran OR the mathematical miracle of the Quran as "influencing magic," what should be understood is that it is just a manipulation and hyperbole.

6. The plural word AYAAT means revelation, sign, evidence, or miracle. However, its singular form AYAT is mentioned in the Quran 84 times and in all its occurrences it means sings, evidence or miracles, not literary revelation of the Quran.

7. This verse is a crucial verse in understanding the Quran and ironically this very verse is one of the most commonly misunderstood verses in the Quran. For a detailed argument on this verse please visit: www.yuksel.org or www.19.org.
Post Posted:
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Hello All

Quote:
BAHGAT: First of all, the first words in sura 74 are not "The Hidden one", the first words are " يَا أَيُّهَا الْمُدَّثِّرُ", "Ya Ayuha Al Muddathir", i.e. "O Al Madathir", i.e. "A call to Al Maddthir", and if we translate "Al Maddathir" to be "The Hidden" then it should be "O the hidden" , a proper translation should look like this :" O thou enveloped in thy cloak", i.e. it is a call to a human not to an object if we consider code 19 an object which of course is not, nor it is a human, therefore "O Al Madathir" must mean a call to a human, this human must be either Mohammad or R K, do you agree brother Edip?


www19org wrote:
Yes, literally you are right, and it does not reduce anything from the importance of the number 19 and its role in the structure of the Quran.


You keep saying, the role of code 19 in the Quran, what role exactly other than removing two verses that suppose to be guarded by Allah?



www19org wrote:
However, your knowledge of the language of the Quran is unfortunately polluted by dogmas.



Ad hominem


www19org wrote:
Perhaps I will never be able to convey you other layers of its meaning. For instance, a person who is not familiar with the Quran might find it bizarre that it tells us that God "talked" to the Earth and Skies and asked them to "submit to His will." According to literarily challenged people, it just does not make sense to personify earth and skies.


Well, how do you know that it didn't happen for real?, didn't the Quran tell us that everything in the heaven and earth Yussabih Be Allah?. i.e. they have their own way of communication, sounds like you are measuring Allah actions as those alike to humans so it does not make sense to you, I guess for all humans to come frorm two humans should not make sense to you either

The important point is this, the Quran verses must be taken literal as long as there is no compelling reason to take one as a metaphor, if we allow to take every verse as a metaphor then we must end with huge problem, everyone will follow their own desires.

Quote:
BAHGAT: Actually brother Edip, you don't need a computer to count letters in words, I see your statement as an exadoration because the computer didn't discover anything, it was only used to count letters, while on the other hand it can be accurately counted using a human, it will just take longer, that's all.



www19org wrote:
Yes, there is no mystery in the computer. But, this does not change the fact that none counted the frequencies of initial letters in the beginning of 29 chapters before Rashad Khalifa.


ell, that does not make Rashad researches valid, someone must have done it, Rashad or another, it makes no difference.

www19org wrote:
For 14 centuries, numerous scholars wrote commentaries of the Quran, and millions of Muslims read them; they all had questions about the meaning of those letters; yet NONE could think of simply counting them.


And how much percentage those verses with letters represent in the Quran?, well, I'm sure they are less than 50 verses, so you are talking about 0.5%, i.e. you leaving 99.5% from the Quran to spend your life counting lots of letters, sounds a bit funny bro, it also confirms 3:7 to me

www19org wrote:
Isn't it strange?


It is strange that you leave 99.5% from the Quran to ponder upon 0.5% and your pondering is nothing more than counting letters, very strange indeed, opps, in the context of 3:7 it should not be strange I guess

www19org wrote:
Don't you find it bizarre this lack of curiosity, the inability to think of such a simple and potential connection?


You are really stretching it, the scholars must say something regarding those verses and what they said was not really much, it is Rashad Khalifa followers who are giving us headache regarding those verses.

www19org wrote:
Whether there is a mathematical pattern in the frequencies of the initial letters or not, in retrospect, it seems that it should have been a very obvious reaction to wonder their frequencies in the chapters they initialized.


My reaction is simply that Allah planned it to Yaghwi those who take His words for foolish non sense.

www19org wrote:
Of course, the computer makes the counting much easier.


Well, how do you know that the program created by a programmer is really counting right?

The computer won't count by itself, a program must be created to give the instruction code to do so, now that instruction code is not going to be easy because we are talking Arabic letters, therefore me as a programmer doubt that a program can successfully do that, as well I'm sure that you have no knowledge to judge if the program is running right either

The only way to confirm if the program is doing it right, is by counting all the letters manually, let's assume that we have 100 persons (I have done a rough calculation and came up that the Quran will never have more than 5 million letters)

If we assume that 100 person will count the whole Quran letters manually (divided between them), then each one should count 50,000 letters, if a person counts just a 1000 letters a day then each person will need no more 2 months, and because all the 100 are doing it simulatency then counting the whole Quran letters will take no more than 2 months, but you want me to believe your non sense that you need a computer for that and yet since January 1974 you failed to count the whole Quran letters?

See

www19org wrote:
I know it because, while I was in Turkish prisons for my political activities and writings, I had the chance to employ about thirty of my comrade inmates to count the "initial letters" manually. I know how a daunting task it is,


Let me tell you then that creating a program to count the Arabic letters will be far more daunting.


Quote:
BAHGAT: The depth in the Arabic language is in its words, sentences, blaghah, i.e. its linguistics, it has nothing to do with numbers really. I can't see any relation other than this funny concept call ABGAD HAWAS, this ABGAD HAWAS thingy is only used in songs for children in Egypt.


www19org wrote:
YUKSEL: This shows your level of research, which apparently is not beyond kindergarten years in Egypt.


Wrong, it is far beyond that, can you please stop your ad hominem?, thanks

www19org wrote:
I will not crass your ego my dear friend. If you had taken a bit your time to educate yourself about the history of numbers and numeral systems, you would laugh at your remark regarding Abgad, Hawas' But, again, I cannot educate you on so many issues in a few hours of writing. You should have studied the subject before you engage in public debate on the very subject.


Ad hominem again?, well it seems that is what you resort to when you fail to refute my argument, as I said, this abgd howas is nothing but non sense and has no value in the Arabic language, there is no use for it other than playin games

www19org wrote:
Besides, I had in the past discussed this issue with people like you and my debate is available at Internet. For instance, see my debates titled Running Like Zebras with Lomax, and Another Running Like Zebras with Ayman. I cannot spend my time again and again to discuss rudimentary historical and archeological facts that are accepted by experts in the field of mathematics. Assuming that you are sincere in your "funny" remark, I recommend you visiting a nearby library and reading Chapter 19 of George Ifrah's book, Universal History of Numbers. If you cannot find that book, you may find dozens of books on the subject. Well, what about me quoting for you the footnote for verse 2:1 in the upcoming book, Quran: a Reformist Translation?


Of course not, do you think I will waste my time doing this instead of pondering upon the Quran?. The abgad hows is not even mentioned in the Quran, it is a human invention, who are you kiddin exactly bro?

www19org wrote:
A1L30M40. The meaning of 14 different combinations of alphabet letters/numbers initializing 29 chapters of the Quran remained a secret for centuries until 1974.



Haha, I like your use of the word secret, well, no it is not a secret, it was just unknown, especially when someone invents it from nothing


www19org wrote:
Many scholars attempted to understand the meaning of these initial letters with no results.


0.5%, big deal, haha, well, not knowing 0.5% from the Quran can fall under 3:7, no question about it that Allah only knows the meaning of those lettered verses.

www19org wrote:
A computerized study that started in 1969 revealed in 1974 a 19-based mathematical design that was prophesied in Chapter 74.


There is no code prophecies in Chapter 74, the verse was talking about the 19 angels guarding Hell

www19org wrote:
The frequency of the 14 alphabet letters in 14 different combinations that initialize 29 chapters are an integral part of this mathematical structure.


Let's count the Alif together then, can you do that with me?. No rush, let's take our time sura by sura

www19org wrote:
Arabs, during the time of revelation, did not use what we now know as Arabic Numerals. A notable book, The Universal History of Numbers by George Ifrah, dedicates Chapters 17-19 to ancient numerical systems, titled: Letters and Numbers, The Invention of Alphabetic Numerals and Other Alphabetic Number-Systems. The book provides extensive information on the Hebrew, Armenian, Phoenician, Greek, Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopian Alphabetic Numerals. According to historical evidence, during the era of Muhammad, Arabs were using their alphabet as their numbering system. The Arabic alphabet then was arranged differently and was named after its first four letters, ABJaD. Each of the 28 letters of the alphabet corresponded to a different number starting from 1 to 9, from 10 to 90, and then from 100 to 1000. When Arabs started adopting Hindu numerals in 760 AC, long after the revelation of the Quran, they abandoned their alphabet/numeral system in favor of a pedagogically arranged alphabet, which is currently in use. Below is the list of the 28 Arabic letters/numbers. When they are put next to each other, their numerical values are added to each other to attain a total number. For instance, the numerical value of ALLaH (God) is 1+30+30+5=66, of ShaHYD (Witness) is 300+5+10+4=319, and of WaHiD (One) is 6+8+4=19.


Total non sense and has no use in life nor logic, this numbering system is nothing but a human invention and is never mentioned in the Quran.

www19org wrote:
Thus, the Quran is not only a literary book, but also a book made of numbers.


This is a lie by Rashad Khalifa that the Quran is made a numeric book, the Quran never said as such about itself


www19org wrote:
The numerical structure of the Quran has two features: intertwined patterns among the physical frequency of its literary units, such as letters, words, phrases, verses, and chapters AND intertwined patterns among the numerical values (ABJaD) of these literary units. Considering the relevancy of the common meaning of words and letters during the time of revelation, we cannot ignore the fact that the combination of letters that initialize 29 chapters are primarily numbers. After Arabs commonly adopted the Indian numerals in the 9th century, unfortunately, the numerical system prevalent during the revelation became an antique abused by charlatan psychics, and astrologists. It is ironic that an innovation (today's Arabic numerals) replaced the original (ABJaD), but through the passage of time people started considering the original to be the innovation! The allergy of Muslim scholars to ABJaD and its use in the Quran, does not allow them to open their eyes to marvels of the numerically structured book (83:7-21).


This is totally irrelevant, Allah never mentioned such alpha numeric system that was clearly man made, on the other hand even if I take it as such then why you keep changing the criteria?, obviously you do so to come up with a number that is dividable by 19. later on I will show you clear examples of such non sense


www19org wrote:
To verify and witness the mathematical system of the Quran, one does not need to know Arabic,


Total non sense, the programmer who wrote the counting program must know Arabic, and those who will follow it must manually confirm what the programmer did

www19org wrote:
though the knowledge of Arabic might increase the magnitude of its appreciation. Though there are hundreds of examples of the 19-based mathematical system, there are surely many still out there yet to be discovered. Meanwhile, there are also some issues that need to be resolved; for instance, the count of the letter Alif still remains to be settled. We know the mathematical structure of the Quran verifies both the extraordinary nature of the text and its miraculous preservation from tampering. However, the system still involves the entire Quran and we have yet to discover a miraculous system verifying the divinity and authenticity of each chapter, independently.


I think we will be wasting out time going through such dialogues, I suggest that we look at code 19 directly and analyse EVERY SINGLE CLAIM, like the JD prediction, like the age 40, the Alif counting, and all

I will continue later on inshaallah

Salam all

_________________
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Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sat 21 Oct, 2017 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Posted:
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Hello All

www19org wrote:
Observers reacting to this prophetic feature fall into three main groups: 1) unappreciative skeptics or fanatic religionists who reject its existence without sufficient investigation;


Those who already believed in the Quran do not need to act as such because simply they already accepted the Quran.as from Allah.

www19org wrote:
2) appreciative seekers of truth who witness it and experience a paradigm change;


Appreciation is only given when it makes sense, if it is totally non sensible than wasting our time should not be appreciated.

www19org wrote:
and 3) gullible people who are impressed by it without fully appreciating the statistical facts and consequently indulge in "discovering" their own "miracles" through arbitrary numerical manipulations and jugglery. Ironically, the third group's exaggerated claims serve as justification for the first group's beliefs. For more information on this issue, please visit, 19.org.


And the same reason that applied to group one have to apply here, the Quran believers don't need to act as such, THEY ALREADY BELIEVED IN THE QURAN.

Quote:
BAHGAT: Let's look at 17:88. "Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others."

قُل لَّئِنِ اجْتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَى أَن يَأْتُواْ بِمِثْلِ هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لاَ يَأْتُونَ بِمِثْلِهِ وَلَوْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ ظَهِيرًا (8Cool

I can't see any relation between the alleged code 19 and the fulfilment of the Quran challenge in 17:88 for the following reasons:

1) What you say means that the Ins and Jinn thought that they made a similar Quran in all these years before R K announced to the public his code, however we know that even in those years no Ins nor Jinn made a similar book like the Quran.


www19org wrote:
Can you let us know what you mean by "similar"?


Sure, Similar? means the least FROM A GOD?

www19org wrote:
There are many great works of literature written by Arabs,


Are these works from A GOD?

www19org wrote:
and some are claimed to be even better than the Quran.



Hmmm, it can't be because these books are not from A GOD, you can't compare apples with mangos, I call this on www.faithfreedom.org web site The Tutty Fruity fallacy?

www19org wrote:
Besides, what about non-Arabic works of literature?


Are they from A GOD?

www19org wrote:
Many people find the repetition in the Quran boring


I didn't

www19org wrote:
or description of hell in the Quran lacking taste.


The description of Hell in the Quran is the best ever, I love it, no one can warn others with hell in such beauty but Allah, did you see the Jahannam Movie?

www19org wrote:
If you cannot define the meaning of your standard, that is "similar", then you have no standard.


I did defined the min requirement of the word similar and what I defined comply with the Quran because there is no other God but Allah, therefore no one will be able to come up with a book from another god, i.e. the challenge will never be met and that is what the Quran predicted exactly.

www19org wrote:
You will reject every other book as not being similar for arbitrary reasons.



When the min requirement is met i.e. a book from a god the least? then I will honestly look into it seriously, and check other requirements.

www19org wrote:
You will reject every book that is a bit similar to have been plagiarized from the Quran.



As I said, when you bring a book from a god as well bring that god to give witness if you are truthful then I will look seriously into the matter, but I know you will fail to do so 100% because there is no other gods but Allah.

www19org wrote:
So, you lack an OBJECTIVE definition of the challenge of the Quran.


Sounds like you are the one who lacks it really, I know many so called Muslims understand the challenge incorrectly. Al hamdullelah I'm not one of them.

See, we can NOT compare a book by Shakespeare and a book by Allah because Allah is a God and Shakespeare is a human, makes sense to you?

www19org wrote:
Besides, even if you prove victory for now, you cannot guarantee that tomorrow someone would not accomplish the challenge.


This is a challenge that I know that it will never be met, this is what the Quran said not my wishful thinking? and when I thought about it logically then it is true that the challenge will never be met because the word similar book means the least a book from another god so we can compare the two and see which book is better.

www19org wrote:
You should consider this: The Quran is not really challenging anyone; it is a rhetorical challenge.


Of course it is not the Quran that is challenging, it is the Author of the Quran Who is the Challenger

www19org wrote:
The Quran is declaring its unique nature;



Of course, its unique natire that it is the direct words of Allah, don't you agree?

www19org wrote:
which is "kitabun marqum", numerically coded book.


This is a clear cut lie by Rashad Khalifa, the Quran never said as such regarding itself, here is a read for all to be assured:



www19org wrote:
Based on our knowledge of its mathematically coded literal nature, and our knowledge regarding limits of human mind and skills, yes, based on these to parameters we should be able to reach to the conclusion: it is impossible for humans to produce a second book like the Quran.


Your knowledge that it is mathematically coded is 100% wrong as seen above

On the other hands there are many who can create books with codes in it exactly as code 19, this is just a try an error knowing the required results in advance, that is what R K did, he had the outcome then made the criteria suits that outcome, on the process he exposed himself big times as we will see lateron inshallah

Quote:
BAHGAT: 2) There is no future fulfilment to any challenge, it is rather you meet the challenge or not, i.e. any challenge is already fulfilled as a challenge the moment it was announced and in the case of the Quran challenge this challenge was fulfilled the day 17:88 was revealed, this means you statement above is logically wrong, the challenge can be proven a lie if being met.


www19org wrote:
These are empty words, brother Ahmed. In order to literarily claim victory of the Quran, you must do the following things: (1) define the meaning of "similar" or provide objective rules for a literary comparison;


It has to be the least from a god.

www19org wrote:
(2) compare the Quran according to those objective rules with all the books claimed to be similar;


When the above is met, I will look into the comparison criteria regarding the content, but this is something I don't need to worry about because I know that a similar book from another god will never be brought forward, I,e, the challenge will never be met past present and future

www19org wrote:
(3) do this until the end of the world, since a "similar" book might be produced in the future.


Of course, I will be waiting till my end if someone brought a book from another god but Allah, but my wait is only to laugh at those who think that there might be another god who can produce a book like the Quran

www19org wrote:
If you could reflect a bit on your inherited claims, you would learn that according to your "literary miracle" the divine nature of the Quran could never be proven,


Hmmm, well natire of the Quran is proven to those who believe in it, they know that it is from Allah and they also know that there is no god but Allah, therefore the challenge in the Quran can never be met for those who believe in the Quran.

www19org wrote:
since it will be open to falsification until the end of the world. However, a prophetic and extraordinary mathematical structure may be able to declare or prove the victory instantly.


Invalid, because there is no god but Allah, hence for me as a Quran believer, the challenge will never be met because no other god exists to produce a similar book like the Quran

Quote:
BAHGAT: 3) It is not like we need to analyse an alleged Quran like book using code 19 to prove if it is alike or not because in all those years before code 19 was announced they didn't have this tool to analyse the alleged Quran like books and yet we know that the challenge was never met in all those years.


www19org wrote:
You do not "know" this. All you are doing is repeating the claims of Muslim scholar.


Actually I never read claims by Muslim scholars against code 19, I only read claims by those Quran aloners who left the submitters cult

www19org wrote:
How do you know that the challenge was never met literarily?

It is you actually who is repeating now, well, the challenge will never be met because there is no other god but Allah to produce a book like the Quran

www19org wrote:
How many literary books written after the Quran have you compared it to?


Repeating again, well, I don't need to start comparing because those hundreds of Arabic books that I read were all man made, they were not made by a god for me to compare it with Allah book

www19org wrote:
Perhaps, you will copy and paste here the silly and fake stories such as "al filu mal filu? Wa ma adraka mal filu?" Since you are rejecting one of the greatest signs and claiming to have a better sign instead, then shouldn't you provide us with some samples of your so-called literary comparisons? I demand it, since I provided you with many examples of the mathematical challenge. But, you are rejecting it without providing a single example or evidence.


This is ridiculous by you brother Edip, I have to dismiss it



I will continue later on inshaallah

Salam all

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